Atoc National Fares Manual Dexterity

Posters have gone up at many Govia-Thameslink stations recently which warn of ticket office closures from some undecleared future date, and their replacement by a single 'customer host'. The union RMT has what appears to be a complete list of stations where this has been threatened: Although I use a ticket machine when I have enough time (it's often faster to use a ticket window if there is no queue as the machine's user interface is so awful) - and there are times when the ticket I want is not available from a machine and I have not been able to buy them online in advancce.

At Luton Airport Parkway station many of the users are arrivals from abroad and those travelling to various parts of South-east England have a lot of travel options, since the Thameslink line intersects with other National Rail lines and the London underground at many points - and the ticketing options are similarly complex. Many of these customers need advice from a human, and after every bus-load arrives from the airport it is not surprising that there are long queues at the ticket windows, even if all three are open. It seems the height of folly to close the ticket windows there. The printed posters give an email address for those wishing to give comments: I'm going to use it and hope others with views will do the same. -- Clive Page jon b 29.02.16 09:28.

On Monday, 29 February 2016 17:28:11 UTC, jon b wrote: >In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available >the full range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office Which ticket that would be required by a walk-up customer who isn't attempting to get a goat group save valid only on Jewish holidays with a disabled armed forces railcard isn't available from the machines? I've bought tickets in arrivals halls or in airport stations in Germany, Japan, USA, France and elsewhere, both for mainline and local transport. The tickets worked and the prices seemed reasonable.

It's possible there was some exotic ticket that would have shaved a Euro off the price had I been willing to accept (and able to understand) complex restrictions, but largely just say to the machine 'give me a ticket to (place) valid for an adult now' and pay the price that is asked. Which part of that won't work at Luton Airport? Ian Roland Perry 29.02.16 10:16. In message, at 09:28:08 on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, jon b remarked: >In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available the full >range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office this >shouldn't be allowed.

My understanding is that TOCs are under a >(legal?) obligation to sell the cheapest available ticket for the >passenger's journey? Ticket machines just can't fulfill this at present. The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for immediate travel. You can't buy one for tomorrow, or for things like Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'. [Both are useful if you are trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you want to travel]. Ticket offices don't sell the cheapest tickets either, because I've never ever been offered a 'via Grantham' ticket when booking from Nottingham to 'London'. Nor a ticket where stopping short (or less commonly, starting long) gives a cheaper fare.

And then there's split tickets, which the offices will grudgingly sell (although arguably outwith the price-promise). But if machines won't sell a ticket *from* 'somewhere else' then they are again incapable of replacing the person in the Window. Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, so closing ticket offices either forces people to use other ticket offices, or those which are open only during restricted hours. >On Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:55:33 UTC, Clive Page wrote: >>Posters have gone up at many Govia-Thameslink stations recently which >>warn of ticket office closures from some undecleared future date, and >>their replacement by a single 'customer host'.

-- Roland Perry tim. 29.02.16 10:26. 'ian batten' wrote in message news:87395a6a-3abc-4dd4-b43e-3dbf3b103d6c@googlegroups.com. >On Monday, 29 February 2016 17:28:11 UTC, jon b wrote: >>In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available >>the full range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office >>Which ticket that would be required by a walk-up customer who isn't >attempting to get a goat group save valid only on Jewish holidays >with a disabled armed forces railcard isn't available from the machines? It's obvious that you don't read all of the posts here There have been several previous complaints of local 'special' (walk up) tickets that are unavailable from machines, across several UK regions tim jimha.@gmail.com 29.02.16 11:02. On Monday, 29 February 2016 18:16:51 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >09:28:08 on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, jon b remarked: >>In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available the full >>range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office this >>shouldn't be allowed.

National Archives, Kew, London TW9 4DU, or e-mail: psi@nationalarchives.gsi.gov.uk. Standards” and “national standards” in this Code of Practice. Impairment affects normal day-to-day activities is whether it affects one of the broad categories of capacity listed below: • mobility. • manual dexterity.

My understanding is that TOCs are under a >>(legal?) obligation to sell the cheapest available ticket for the >>passenger's journey? Ticket machines just can't fulfill this at present. >>The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for >immediate travel.

You can't buy one for tomorrow, On LM machines, you can buy for the following day after 3pm. >or for things like >Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'. [Both are useful if you are >trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you >want to travel].

Although you can of course collect tickets purchased online, even from a phone stood right next to them machine. >Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, so closing >ticket offices either forces people to use other ticket offices, or >those which are open only during restricted hours. Then we get back into the 'how many people don't have access to the Internet but want to make journeys of sufficient length that advances are available' debate. How many people, really, buy advances over the counter? Ian Ian Batten 29.02.16 12:21.

On 18:06, Roland Perry wrote: >The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for >immediate travel. You can't buy one for tomorrow, You can on at least some Southern machines. Or for things like >Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'. [Both are useful if you are >trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you >want to travel].

If there were huge queues at the ticket offices, presumably the issue wouldn't be arising. >Ticket offices don't sell the cheapest tickets either, because I've >never ever been offered a 'via Grantham' ticket when booking from >Nottingham to 'London'.

Nor a ticket where stopping short (or less >commonly, starting long) gives a cheaper fare. I have (though presumably shouldn't have been). >And then there's split tickets, which the offices will grudgingly sell >(although arguably outwith the price-promise). But if machines won't >sell a ticket *from* 'somewhere else' Southern ones will (although I have not tested this to Newhaven Marine to Republic of Ireland levels of destruction) >then they are again incapable of >replacing the person in the Window. >Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, Is there any reason they couldn't (other than hardworking families not realising that an Advance ticket for a Saturday next month is not a fully-flexible walk-on ticket for today, see tabloids passim)? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK Mark Bestley 29.02.16 12:51.

Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >09:28:08 on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, jon b remarked: >>In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available the full >>range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office this >>shouldn't be allowed. My understanding is that TOCs are under a >>(legal?) obligation to sell the cheapest available ticket for the >>passenger's journey? Ticket machines just can't fulfill this at present. >>The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for >immediate travel. You can't buy one for tomorrow, or for things like >Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'. [Both are useful if you are >trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you >want to travel]. Odd Govia Southern ones do all of these sp others in the same francise don't?

>>Ticket offices don't sell the cheapest tickets either, because I've >never ever been offered a 'via Grantham' ticket when booking from >Nottingham to 'London'. Nor a ticket where stopping short (or less >commonly, starting long) gives a cheaper fare.

>>And then there's split tickets, which the offices will grudgingly sell >(although arguably outwith the price-promise). But if machines won't >sell a ticket *from* 'somewhere else' then they are again incapable of >replacing the person in the Window. Again Govia Southern does this (well for many stations) >>Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, so closing >ticket offices either forces people to use other ticket offices, or >those which are open only during restricted hours.

>That's true -- Mark Roland Perry 29.02.16 13:58. In message, at 12:20:38 on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available the full >>>range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office this >>>shouldn't be allowed.

My understanding is that TOCs are under a >>>(legal?) obligation to sell the cheapest available ticket for the >>>passenger's journey? Ticket machines just can't fulfill this at present. >>>>The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for >>immediate travel. You can't buy one for tomorrow, >>On LM machines, you can buy for the following day after 3pm. >>>or for things like >>Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'. [Both are useful if you are >>trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you >>want to travel]. >>Although you can of course collect tickets purchased online, even from >a phone stood right next to them machine.

As long as you know to use the ones with the instant back office, rather than the one with the guaranteed 2hr delay in the back office. >>Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, so closing >>ticket offices either forces people to use other ticket offices, or >>those which are open only during restricted hours. >>Then we get back into the 'how many people don't have access to the >Internet but want to make journeys of sufficient length that advances >are available' debate. How many people, really, buy advances over the >counter? Having been in queues at ticket windows, many of the people are buying advances. It's one of the main reasons the queues stall. And don't ever underestimate the opinion I've heard many times which is people going up to a machine and asking for a walk-up fare, then saying 'That can't possibly be right, I paid about half that last time', then go and join the queue for the window.

A small fraction of those then pay for the ticket under protest, on the basis that they believe the seller is scamming them, and they'll check up when they get back home. -- Roland Perry Michael R N Dolbear 29.02.16 16:41. In message, at 20:24:40 on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, Arthur Figgis remarked: >>The main problem is that the machines will only sell tickets for >>immediate travel. You can't buy one for tomorrow, >>You can on at least some Southern machines. >>or for things like >>Off-Peak sometimes even for 'later today'.

[Both are useful if you are >>trying to make sure that you aren't scuppered by huge queues when you >>want to travel]. >>If there were huge queues at the ticket offices, presumably the issue >wouldn't be arising. Some of the stations will still be manned in the morning peak. >>Finally, the ticket machines don't sell Advance tickets, >>Is there any reason they couldn't (other than hardworking families not >realising that an Advance ticket for a Saturday next month is not a >fully-flexible walk-on ticket for today, see tabloids passim)? It's a completely different type of transaction, requiring people to pick a specific train (and sometimes from a choice of routes); the current user interface struggles with much simpler stuff like selling open tickets and only specifying the departure day, not the return day.

-- Roland Perry Martin Coffee 01.03.16 01:18. On 01/03/16 09:55, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 08:48:07 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>It's a completely different type of transaction, requiring people to >>pick a specific train (and sometimes from a choice of routes); the >>current user interface struggles with much simpler stuff like selling >>open tickets and only specifying the departure day, not the return day. >>Of course a new interface could do it, and would probably be quite >welcome to those who are really confused about things. >I'm not confused by ticketing but I do despise the ticket machines which do not offer a full range of walk-up fares or discounts. >On 2016-03-01 08:48:07 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>It's a completely different type of transaction, requiring people to >>pick a specific train (and sometimes from a choice of routes); the >>current user interface struggles with much simpler stuff like selling >>open tickets and only specifying the departure day, not the return day. >>Of course a new interface could do it, and would probably be quite >welcome to those who are really confused about things.

>I'm not confused by ticketing but I do despise the ticket machines which do not offer the full range of walk on fares or rail card discounts. I also despise the machines which silently drop the rail card discount 1 minute before they become valid, to catch a train a few minutes later. This is unforgivable. In my opinion it should be a requirement that if a machine does not offer a full range of walk on fares and discount it should be required to offer a permit to travel at the lowest fare available from that station. Roland Perry 01.03.16 03:37. In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: [Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the Off-Peak >fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they existed. I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak tickets.

They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* valid[1].

Too much scope otherwise for people to say 'but the ticket MUST be valid, or you would not have sold it to me'. In other news, my station's ticket machines lie about when an off-peak ticket is valid (there's a box pops up towards the end of the transaction). If they can't fix a simple thing like that. [1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB to see if it's actually left yet. -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 01.03.16 03:37. In message, at 09:55:22 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>It's a completely different type of transaction, requiring people to >>pick a specific train (and sometimes from a choice of routes); the >>current user interface struggles with much simpler stuff like selling >>open tickets and only specifying the departure day, not the return day. >>Of course a new interface could do it, and would probably be quite >welcome to those who are really confused about things.

You'd need a whole new kiosk I think. -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 01.03.16 04:01.

On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 11:37:34 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar >2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>[Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>>>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>>>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the Off-Peak >>fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they existed. >>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though. >Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* >valid[1]. There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be the primary source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, or should it be somewhere you collect pre-ordered tickets (in order to have them printed in a physically secure, fsvo secure, form) and as an extra service can buy simple tickets for immediate travel as well. I think it's tending towards the latter, and will be completely the latter within a few years (Ie, you use it to collect pre-booked tickets, or you're making distress purchase last-minute purchases).

Others want it, or a ticket booth, to provide the full spectrum of services. That's a philosophical difference. I'd just say that the progress of every other form of ticketing, be it for theatres, planes or whatever, is towards 'buy online, then collect' and you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you think that model should not prevail. Ian Graeme Wall 01.03.16 04:55. On 11:34, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar >2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>[Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>>>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>>>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the >>Off-Peak fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they >>existed. >>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though.

>Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* valid[1]. >>Too much scope otherwise for people to say 'but the ticket MUST be >valid, or you would not have sold it to me'.

>>In other news, my station's ticket machines lie about when an off-peak >ticket is valid (there's a box pops up towards the end of the >transaction). If they can't fix a simple thing like that. >I sincerely doubt the machine is lying to you. I'm surprised that someone in your line of business descends into the depths of anthropomorphism about machines. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. Roland Perry 01.03.16 05:37.

In message, at 04:00:59 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 11:37:34 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar >>2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>>[Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>>>>>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>>>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>>>>>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the Off-Peak >>>fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they existed. >>>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though.

>>Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* >>valid[1]. >>There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be the primary >source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, The machine isn't, but the *station* is. If they want to replace the people behind the windows with a machine, then the machine needs to be a lot better than those currently deployed. >or should it be somewhere you collect pre-ordered tickets (in order to >have them printed in a physically secure, fsvo secure, form) For a while, the answer to that was ITSO cards, and picking up your tickets on those. The technology (or the implementation of it) appears to have let that project down devastatingly. >and as an extra service can buy simple tickets for immediate travel as >well.

If you can find a machine without a queue, then potentially it does serve that need. >I think it's tending towards the latter, and will be completely the >latter within a few years (Ie, you use it to collect pre-booked >tickets, or you're making distress purchase last-minute purchases). Just because it's last minute doesn't make it a distress purchase. Compare with Plusbus tickets which can be bought online, but lots of people still pay the driver at the last-second (let alone last minute).

Are those also distress purchases? >Others want it, or a ticket booth, to provide the full spectrum of >services. That's a philosophical difference. I'd just say that the >progress of every other form of ticketing, be it for theatres, planes >or whatever, is towards 'buy online, then collect' and you're going to >have a hard row to hoe if you think that model should not prevail. The difference is in the degree to which you can expect the public to 'plan ahead'. Should we all be corralled into buying our city centre car parking in advance (the way many people do for airports), and booking a table at Starbucks days ahead of when we might turn up there (the way e book special meals on a plane)? I think the main lesson here is that such analogies don't in fact work.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 01.03.16 05:37. In message, at 12:55:42 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >>In other news, my station's ticket machines lie about when an off-peak >>ticket is valid (there's a box pops up towards the end of the >>transaction). If they can't fix a simple thing like that.

>>I sincerely doubt the machine is lying to you. I'm surprised that >someone in your line of business descends into the depths of >anthropomorphism about machines. It displays incorrect information; whether that's the machine, or the keeper of its database, lying, isn't important in the context. -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 01.03.16 05:49. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 13:37:37 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >04:00:59 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten >remarked: >>On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 11:37:34 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >>>In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar >>>2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>>>>[Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>>>>>>>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>>>>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>>>>>>>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the Off-Peak >>>>fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they existed. >>>>>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>>tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though.

>>>Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* >>>valid[1]. >>>>There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be the primary >>source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, >>The machine isn't, but the *station* is. OK, but it's the same question, really: for how long is that model going to persist. A lot of it comes down to 'but what about people who don't use the Internet', and we're back to goat herding again.

>For a while, the answer to that was ITSO cards, and picking up your >tickets on those. The technology (or the implementation of it) appears >to have let that project down devastatingly. Long-term, I suspect the solution will be tickets tied to debit cards via an online database. But we can speculate endlessly. >Just because it's last minute doesn't make it a distress purchase. >>Compare with Plusbus tickets which can be bought online, but lots of >people still pay the driver at the last-second (let alone last minute).

But they can't in London, because London buses are now cashless and you need a card of some sort. The world hasn't ended. >The difference is in the degree to which you can expect the public to >'plan ahead'. But one of the complaints is that machines don't sell advances. Those are the very definition of 'planning ahead'. >Should we all be corralled into buying our city centre car >parking in advance (the way many people do for airports) Well, I've just bought a parking permit for a concert I'm going to in a few months.

And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone anyway. >and booking a >table at Starbucks days ahead of when we might turn up there (the way e >book special meals on a plane)? Starbucks has to be manned anyway, and don't take table bookings. But increasingly, restaurants do online bookings, and there's more expectation that you will. I can imagine that in a few years, closing for the session if there's no bookings will become more common, rather than staying open in the hope of a walk-in or two. Ian Jeremy Double 01.03.16 05:54. Ian batten wrote: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 11:37:34 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at 09:54:29 on Tue, 1 Mar >>2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>>[Buying tickets for tomorrow] >>>>>>You can on SWT machines, but only an Anytime, not an Off-peak (I >>>>haven't tried this at the weekend) >>>>>>The problem with that (and I think LM is the same) is that the Off-Peak >>>fares are just missed off, so a user would not know they existed.

>>>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, though. >>Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they *are* >>valid[1].

>>There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be the primary >source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, or should it be somewhere >you collect pre-ordered tickets (in order to have them printed in a physically >secure, fsvo secure, form) and as an extra service can buy simple tickets >for immediate travel as well. I think it's tending towards the latter, and will >be completely the latter within a few years (Ie, you use it to collect pre-booked >tickets, or you're making distress purchase last-minute purchases).

Others >want it, or a ticket booth, to provide the full spectrum of services. That's >a philosophical difference. I'd just say that the progress of every other form >of ticketing, be it for theatres, planes or whatever, is towards 'buy online, >then collect' and you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you think that model >should not prevail.

Elderly people who cannot cope with computers would probably also have trouble with ticket machines, of any description other than the simplest. -- Jeremy Double Roland Perry 01.03.16 06:27. In message, at 05:49:51 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be >>>the primary source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, >>>>The machine isn't, but the *station* is. >>OK, but it's the same question, really: for how long is that model going to >persist. A lot of it comes down to 'but what about people who don't use >the Internet', and we're back to goat herding again.

The other side of the coin is why would someone use the Internet to book a £2.50 train ticket, when a properly configured machine at the station would be a better solution. >>For a while, the answer to that was ITSO cards, and picking up your >>tickets on those. The technology (or the implementation of it) appears >>to have let that project down devastatingly.

>>Long-term, I suspect the solution will be tickets tied to debit cards via >an online database. But we can speculate endlessly. That still has a capability gap, one that the ITSO scheme has bottled out of, which is what order you use the pre-bought tickets, if not the order in which you bought them. Another solution, which was announced as trialing but I've not heard much about since, is to have your phone report its location to the train companies and for them to retrospectively work out which ones you caught and therefore what to charge you. >>Just because it's last minute doesn't make it a distress purchase. >>>>Compare with Plusbus tickets which can be bought online, but lots of >>people still pay the driver at the last-second (let alone last minute).

>>But they can't in London, because London buses are now cashless and you >need a card of some sort. The world hasn't ended. That's a lot to do with their flat-fare system and the closed system which is TfL. If I were to plan a day trip to Manchester (where I haven't been for several years) is it reasonable to expect me to buy whatever Manchester's version of Oyster is, in anticipation? >>The difference is in the degree to which you can expect the public to >>'plan ahead'. >>But one of the complaints is that machines don't sell advances. Those >are the very definition of 'planning ahead'.

Conflating two different things. You can plan ahead by going to the station to buy an advance ticket (a surprising number of the conversations I've overheard result in the conclusion that the traveller finds the best fare vastly too expensive and decides to drive instead). >>Should we all be corralled into buying our city centre car >>parking in advance (the way many people do for airports) >>Well, I've just bought a parking permit for a concert I'm going to in a >few months.

Not quite the same as a regular shopping trip. >And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone anyway. Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for one-offs. Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. >>and booking a table at Starbucks days ahead of when we might turn up >>there (the way e book special meals on a plane)?

>>Starbucks has to be manned anyway, and don't take table bookings. Planes on which you eat the special meals have to be manned anyway.

As does the cinema or the train. >But increasingly, restaurants do online bookings, and there's more >expectation that you will. The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me. But they just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a combination of walk-ins and phone bookings). The several dozen people who arrived later that evening, whose online bookings had disappeared into the same black hole, were not so lucky. Not a good evening for either the restaurant or its customers. At around £30 a head plus drinks (which is expensive for where we live) that's not the kind of service to expect.

If I'd been the proprietor, I might have wondered in advance why on that very busy Friday evening apparently no online bookings had been made. -- Roland Perry Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:31. On 2016-03-01 11:30:07 +0000, Roland Perry said: >In message, at 09:55:22 on Tue, 1 >Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>It's a completely different type of transaction, requiring people to >>>pick a specific train (and sometimes from a choice of routes); the >>>current user interface struggles with much simpler stuff like selling >>>open tickets and only specifying the departure day, not the return day. >>>>Of course a new interface could do it, and would probably be quite >>welcome to those who are really confused about things. >>You'd need a whole new kiosk I think. I doubt it - that is the system employed by the German ones, and they use the same Scheidt & Bachmann hardware we do. They are just Windows machines, you can run what you like on them.

Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:33. On 2016-03-01 11:34:47 +0000, Roland Perry said: >I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, >though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they >*are* valid[1].

A better way would be to have them shown, but with the button grey. On pressing it, a popup would say 'This ticket is not valid at present. Validity is as follows: (single line restriction summary). You may only purchase this ticket from this machine during the times it is valid'. >[1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last >invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB >to see if it's actually left yet. For all the difference it would make in practice, it would probably make sense to allow their use on a delayed peak-time train.

Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:38. On 2016-03-01 12:00:59 +0000, ian batten said: >There's a fundamental question: is the purpose of the machine to be the primary >source of tickets, covering the whole spectrum, or should it be somewhere >you collect pre-ordered tickets (in order to have them printed in a physically >secure, fsvo secure, form) and as an extra service can buy simple tickets >for immediate travel as well. I think it's tending towards the latter, >and will >be completely the latter within a few years (Ie, you use it to collect >pre-booked >tickets, or you're making distress purchase last-minute purchases). Others >want it, or a ticket booth, to provide the full spectrum of services.

That's >a philosophical difference. I'd just say that the progress of every other form >of ticketing, be it for theatres, planes or whatever, is towards 'buy online, >then collect' and you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you think >that model >should not prevail. The difference between rail, certainly local rail as is being discussed here, is that you have a motivation to buy the other items in advance because they get full.

Trains don't in the same way (i.e. Seats go to those who board first, not to those who buy first). InterCity rail is different, and while it has its problems and benefits I can see us going to the French compulsory-reservation model long-term, and if we do then what you say would apply. I even now book cinema tickets in advance to secure the best seat - the price doesn't change (indeed some charge a bit extra) but there is a motivation that isn't there for local rail.

Indeed, the seat selectors are making me much more likely to book rail tickets online, though I do wish they (and the airlines) would show the window positions! The only viable way I can see to provide that motivation for local rail is to charge a small fee, something like 50p or £1 would do, for buying at the station. Then you could have a very large bank of simple collection-type TVMs and only a few 'buy on the day' ones.

Or you could even, as I guess you sort of suggest, make only adult and child Anytime Single tickets available to purchase at the station/on the train - for any discount at all buy in advance (even if 'in advance' just means 'immediately before you leave the house'). Graham Murray 01.03.16 06:40. Roland Perry writes: >I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >tickets.

They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, >though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they >*are* valid[1]. [snip] >[1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last >invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB >to see if it's actually left yet.

I wonder how the machines at Reading cope for Off-peak tickets to London (including Travelcards) where the first valid train is before the last invalid one? They are valid on 08:42 to Waterloo and 09:05, 09:12, 09:18, 09:25 and 09:33 to Paddington, but not on the 09:09, 09:15, 09:16, 09:19, 09:23 or 09:27. Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:47. On 2016-03-01 13:33:45 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The machine isn't, but the *station* is.

If they want to replace the >people behind the windows with a machine, then the machine needs to be >a lot better than those currently deployed. Or the walk-up fare structure needs *properly* simplifying. I don't necessarily support the exact approach such as the removal of Railcard discounts from many tickets, but look at Merseyrail. The only options for travel within their network are Anytime Day Single, Anytime Day Return or a zonal day ticket product. Easy to sell from a machine (though ironically they waste subsidy staffing all the stations when there is no need).

To me, return tickets with restrictions are a substantial complicating factor. Move to single ticket pricing and you remove that. If you want to make a return journey, buy two singles. If you don't know when you want to return, buy it when you do.

To allow a small amount of flexibility, you could make all single tickets over a certain distance valid for two railway calendar days i.e. Until 0430 on day 3, and permit Break of Journey on either all or no tickets.

For short journeys you'd have day singles plus day tickets (why worry about double-use for short journeys? Almost nobody actually will) and Travelcards, that's it. Railcards would all give the same discounts and all have the same validity. So only one button for 'Railcard discount' needed. *Proper* simplification. >For a while, the answer to that was ITSO cards, and picking up your >tickets on those.

The technology (or the implementation of it) appears >to have let that project down devastatingly. It got out of date before it was implemented.

There may be some sense in doing seasons this way to avoid wiping magstripes, but not anything else. E-ticketing is the way to go - the barcode refers to the database, you can have the barcode (or NFC code or whatever) on any device you like or on a bit of paper, and reprint at will if you lose it or your battery runs out. For buses and very local train journeys, contactless is the solution.

Touch in when you board, touch out when you leave or be charged the maximum possible single fare for your journey. To avoid complexity for those with children, up the adult fares a little and make accompanied children travelling with paying or passholding adults free of charge. >The difference is in the degree to which you can expect the public to >'plan ahead'. Should we all be corralled into buying our city centre >car parking in advance Having the option to do that rather than driving around in circles looking for a space may actually be useful. Ahead needn't necessarily be any more ahead than 'just before you leave the house', or 'on your phone at the motorway services on the way down'.

I actually rather like that idea if it reserves me a space. >(the way many people do for airports), and booking a table at >Starbucks days ahead of when we might turn up there (the way e book >special meals on a plane)?

I don't think booking a table at Starbucks makes a lot of sense, but it might well make sense (and you can now do it) to pull out your phone, order your drinks and walk in, with them there ready for you to collect without a queue. Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:50. On 2016-03-01 13:49:51 +0000, ian batten said: >Starbucks has to be manned anyway, and don't take table bookings. But >increasingly, >restaurants do online bookings, and there's more expectation that you >will. I can >imagine that in a few years, closing for the session if there's no >bookings will become >more common, rather than staying open in the hope of a walk-in or two. Or avoid what I had the other week on a Sunday evening, where just about everywhere in Edinburgh had closed early because it was quiet, and the only option was McD's, pretty much.

If I had booked, they would have had my details to at least contact me and apologise that they couldn't honour it, which might have made me buy something from the station M&S on arrival before that too shut, or perhaps they'd have stayed open. We aren't talking here about 'book 3 weeks in advance' nor of planning, we're just talking of doing it just before you go for whatever it is you're booking or once you've decided you want it. Neil Williams 01.03.16 06:53. On 2016-03-01 13:54:04 +0000, Jeremy Double said: >Elderly people who cannot cope with computers would probably also have >trouble with ticket machines, of any description other than the simplest.

We will reach a point, we possibly already have, where it would be cheaper to provide training for those people. There are enough 'silver surfers' that I can't really accept that they can't. And I don't think the economy or society needs to provide for 'won'ts', only 'can'ts'.

And the genuine 'can'ts', i.e. Those with disabilities, can be provided for in other ways, e.g. It's probably cheaper to give a relatively few people with disabilities that prevent them easily using a TVM or online booking but who are still independent enough to travel alone without a carer (e.g. Some blind people or those with restricted dexterity) free travel nationally than it is to keep a load of ticket offices open just in case one of them walks in. Neil Williams 01.03.16 07:00. On 2016-03-01 14:24:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The other side of the coin is why would someone use the Internet to >book a £2.50 train ticket, when a properly configured machine at the >station would be a better solution. I'd use my phone, personally, particularly if it could be held on the phone rather than having to faff about printing it.

>That's a lot to do with their flat-fare system and the closed system >which is TfL. If I were to plan a day trip to Manchester (where I >haven't been for several years) is it reasonable to expect me to buy >whatever Manchester's version of Oyster is, in anticipation? You could use contactless. Or you could have machines that allow you to insert the amount of money of your choosing (or pay that by card), plus a card deposit, and it'll spit one out. The same machine could refund it once done.

>>And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone anyway. >>Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for >one-offs. Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. There are only a few such systems in use, and the one you are likely to want to use is the one used locally.

I use RingGo quite frequently, MK Council use it as do a few train companies (though sadly not LM). >The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me. But they >just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a combination >of walk-ins and phone bookings).

The several dozen people who arrived >later that evening, whose online bookings had disappeared into the same >black hole, were not so lucky. >>Not a good evening for either the restaurant or its customers. At >around £30 a head plus drinks (which is expensive for where we live) >that's not the kind of service to expect.

If I'd been the proprietor, I >might have wondered in advance why on that very busy Friday evening >apparently no online bookings had been made. That is the business's error, and it will cost them. Graeme Wall 01.03.16 07:13. On 14:53, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 13:54:04 +0000, Jeremy Double said: >>>Elderly people who cannot cope with computers would probably >>also have trouble with ticket machines, of any description >>other than the simplest. >>We will reach a point, we possibly already have, where it >would be cheaper to provide training for those people.

There >are enough 'silver surfers' that I can't really accept that >they can't. And I don't think the economy or society needs to >provide for 'won'ts', only 'can'ts'. And the genuine 'can'ts', >i.e.

Those with disabilities, can be provided for in other >ways, e.g. You are Ian Batten and I claim my five pounds:-) Staff on stations create other benefits than just selling tickets. The way things are at the moment in Greater Manchester, that includes advising people on what is the best fare from A to B - Northern Duo, Wayfarer, Day Ranger, what if one person has a railcard, the other hasn't, etc. Reserving seats for people who already have tickets, setting up photo-cards for first-time season ticket holders, general travel advice, providing leaflets about offers etc., advising when trains are cancelled, and generally looking after the station and its passengers. Of course the economy and society can afford it. The typical wage for the job is little more than unemployment benefit anyway. What _are_ people to do for a living when everything goes self-service?

Charlie Ian Batten 01.03.16 08:04. One of the worst of the 'bad faith' arguments. Firstly, as the years go by, the idea that the elderly don't use computers will simply die (literally): do you think that today's Facebook generation are going to say 'well, those computers were all very well when I was younger, but now I'm going to explore the world of manual typewriters in retirement?' Secondly, economically active to the point of buying traini tickets (as opposed to travelling on Freedom passes, etc) elderly people today will be in large part computer users. And thirdly, who are these people who are able to travel solo but cannot use ticket machines? Or are they a figment of the 'old people, they're all a bit thick' stereotype?

It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than online, ditto order from Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you think that there are no customers over 65? My parents and my in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s.

[[ And of course, the best solution to people being unable to use computers is to teach them to use computers, rather than bodge around the inability. Give a man a fish, etc. ]] ian Roland Perry 01.03.16 08:07. In message, at 15:13:05 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >>>>In other news, my station's ticket machines lie about when an off-peak >>>>ticket is valid (there's a box pops up towards the end of the >>>>transaction). If they can't fix a simple thing like that. >>>>>>I sincerely doubt the machine is lying to you.

I'm surprised that >>>someone in your line of business descends into the depths of >>>anthropomorphism about machines. >>>>It displays incorrect information; whether that's the machine, or the >>keeper of its database, lying, isn't important in the context.

>>It very much is important, for a start, lying is a concious attempt to >deceive, a machine has no concience (neither have some companies but >that's another matter) and poor or out of date programming is not >necessarily a deliberate attempt to deceive. It's such a fundamental parameter of the tickets that there must be some institutionalised dis-inclination to fix the display. -- Roland Perry Graeme Wall 01.03.16 08:09. On 11:34, Roland Perry wrote: >I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of >off-peak tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they >are valid, though. Which is probably why the machines only sell >them when they *are* valid[1]. >>Too much scope otherwise for people to say 'but the ticket MUST >be valid, or you would not have sold it to me'.

What about situations where the return half of an off-peak is not valid in the evening peak? The machine still has to sell those in the middle of the day, so I don't see why it can't sell one at 09:15 to someone who fancies a coffee at the station Starbucks before catching the 09:40. Charlie Ian Batten 01.03.16 08:19. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 15:00:19 UTC, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 14:24:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>The other side of the coin is why would someone use the Internet to >>book a £2.50 train ticket, when a properly configured machine at the >>station would be a better solution. >>I'd use my phone, personally, particularly if it could be held on the >phone rather than having to faff about printing it.

I used an online purchase thing in Munich recently which worked very well, even for cheap tickets. Meant I could buy a ticket for a couple of Euros in the peace of a hotel room able to think what I wanted, then hold it on the phone, rather than try to do it on a machine with a queue behind me.

That the ticket was only a couple of Euro was neither here nor there. >There are only a few such systems in use, and the one you are likely to >want to use is the one used locally.

I use RingGo quite frequently, MK >Council use it as do a few train companies (though sadly not LM). And even the ones that require registration usually have a phone version which works quickly enough. >>The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me. But they >>just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a combination >That is the business's error, and it will cost them. And 'application X didn't work, so all computers are rubbish' is a pretty thin argument. Ian Ian Batten 01.03.16 08:25.

On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 15:25:43 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >Of course the economy and society can afford it. The typical wage >for the job is little more than unemployment benefit anyway. You are absolutely joking. The costs of employing a shift-based staff to provide a manned booking window 7am to 6pm, with cover for sickness, leave and training, plus the HR, safety and other on-costs, are substantially more than JSA, and as you have reeled off a list of knowledge you're expecting them to have, you'll want to recruit staff capable of doing the job and pay them enough to retain their experience and skill. Would you be happy to have your booking office staffed on Tuesday by someone who was on JSA on Monday? Then it costs more than JSA.

And this was a discussion about the South East. Remember that joke poster we had a few weeks ago with some cockamamie scheme to keep some dead-end heritage railway going by forcing people on JSA to work on it, until it was pointed out that in the constituency in which the railway was located there were only a few tens of people actually on JSA? The economy is able to absorb all the workers who might staff south-eastern ticket selling booths, and the railways will have the same problem as they did in the 1950s, that the margins in their services aren't enough to pay suitable wages to recruit and retain staff. Ian Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 08:26. On 16:04, ian batten wrote: >It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than >online, ditto order from Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you >think that there are no customers over 65?

My parents and my >in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s. >The 'elderly' people of the future will be the many that - by then - are in their 100s.

Ageing leads to an inevitable loss of manual dexterity, sadly, and clicking in little boxes on screens to say you agree with the terms and conditions (etc) may well prove difficult for some. Charlie Ian Batten 01.03.16 08:36. All the more reason to do it at home on a massive monitor. Accessibility is an issue, but the solution is to find solutions, not to say 'oh, they're old, what can you do?'

Who'd have thought a generation ago that there would be wheelchair access to parts of the deep tube in London? Oh, and the solution for small tickboxes is to tab through the elements and use the space bar to toggle the tickbox. Just turn on 'accessibility' options as appropriate (in Safari it's called 'press tab to highlight each item on a web page') and you need never struggle to click on a small tickbox again. Ian Recliner 01.03.16 08:45.

On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 16:45:20 UTC, Recliner wrote: >Charlie Hulme wrote: >>On 16:04, ian batten wrote: >>>>>It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than >>>online, ditto order from Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you >>>think that there are no customers over 65? My parents and my >>>in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s.

>>>>>>>The 'elderly' people of the future will be the many that - by >>then - are in their 100s. >>>>Ageing leads to an inevitable loss of manual dexterity, sadly, >>and clicking in little boxes on screens to say you agree with the >>terms and conditions (etc) may well prove difficult for some. >>That's certainly true, but with a touch screen user interface it's also >possible to engineer an interface Most devices don't have the interfaces designed, or even engineered: they just lie there on the screen, flapping helplessly, with all the appeal of a quick 'deadline next week' student exercise with a GUI builder. But I also recall 'what about the old folk, they won't be able to use them you know' about, variously, pound coins, chip and PIN, Oyster Cards, contactless payment, email, iPads, mobile phones, microwave ovens. Patronising nonsense, largely. Whatever happened to the people who would be unable to travel after the removal of cash payment on London busses, unable to buy food with the withdrawal of cheque facilities in supermarkets and unable to communicate because of the closure of their local post office? Ian Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 09:02.

On 16:36, ian batten wrote: >Accessibility is an issue, but the solution is to find >solutions, not to say 'oh, they're old, what can you do?' >Who'd have thought a generation ago that there would be >wheelchair access to parts of the deep tube in London?

I didn't say that. The 'solution' might just be to speak to the nice helpful person who is there to help all sorts of people with all sorts of things. (Might be the only person they talk to that day, but who cares about that.) >>Oh, and the solution for small tickboxes is to tab through the >elements and use the space bar to toggle the tickbox. Just >turn on 'accessibility' options as appropriate (in Safari it's >called 'press tab to highlight each item on a web page') and >you need never struggle to click on a small tickbox again.

>True - although there are some booking and sales sites which are likely to be quite hard to use in that way. I just tried it on TPE's site using Chrome. I managed to enter some station names, then had to use the mouse for the date choice. Try as I might, I could not Tab to the little circular One Way / Return options. Charlie Roland Perry 01.03.16 09:07.

In message, at 16:09:15 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >>>>>>In other news, my station's ticket machines lie about when an off-peak >>>>>>ticket is valid (there's a box pops up towards the end of the >>>>>>transaction). If they can't fix a simple thing like that.

>>>>>>>>>>I sincerely doubt the machine is lying to you. I'm surprised that >>>>>someone in your line of business descends into the depths of >>>>>anthropomorphism about machines. >>>>>>>>It displays incorrect information; whether that's the machine, or the >>>>keeper of its database, lying, isn't important in the context.

>>>>>>It very much is important, for a start, lying is a concious attempt to >>>deceive, a machine has no concience (neither have some companies but >>>that's another matter) and poor or out of date programming is not >>>necessarily a deliberate attempt to deceive. >>>>It's such a fundamental parameter of the tickets that there must be some >>institutionalised dis-inclination to fix the display. >>So you are of the conspiracy rather than cockup persuasion? I don't think it's a conspiracy to make people buy more expensive tickets than they need to, but there's definitely a design decision which says that it's not necessary to drill down into fare restrictions like J8, and inform passengers of easements like: Travel is permitted on services from Kings Cross to Ely, Littleport, Downham Market, Watlington, Kings Lynn March, Lakenheath, Newmarket, Dullingham and Shippea Hill between 16:29 and 19:00. Ie no evening peak restriction for this off-peak day return if travelling north of Waterbeach. Sql Tool Belt Bundle Incl Keygenguru. I have no idea whether they cope with the 'Seasonal Variations' viz: everything is off peak in the evening, in school holidays, from LST. The most charitable view is that it's actually a three-way choice between cockup, can't be arsed, and conspiracy.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 01.03.16 09:07. On 16:54, ian batten wrote: >Whatever happened to the people who would be unable to travel >after the removal of cash payment on London busses, unable to >buy food with the withdrawal of cheque facilities in >supermarkets and unable to communicate because of the closure >of their local post office? Perhaps they are struggling on with more difficulty, and more help needed, than before. Yes, we are all getting old with all this tech. But I still think there is room for people helping other people face to face occasionally.

I never use self-service machines in supermarkets. They are horrid things, and I like to say hello to a person.

I do use them in the library - but then I installed quite a few myself. Charlie Roland Perry 01.03.16 09:17. In message, at 08:04:15 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >And thirdly, who are these people who are able to travel solo but >cannot use ticket machines? Or are they a figment of the 'old people, >they're all a bit thick' stereotype? No, they are people who haven't picked up the skills to use technology, and are now too old to learn new tricks. >It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than online, ditto order from >Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you think that there are no customers over 65?

>My parents and my in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s. And older consumers either choose to use a more tractable supplier (like an airline who sells tickets via a High Street agent) or get someone to help them. Or struggle with it until they get it right. Even ordering from Ocado doesn't have to be over in half an hour, but someone standing at a ticket machine prodding things at random for half an hour is likely to be regarded as at the very least a bit antisocial. >[[ And of course, the best solution to people being unable to use computers is >to teach them to use computers, rather than bodge around the inability. Give a >man a fish, etc. ]] Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

Or the longer version: Teach a man to fish and he has to buy bamboo rods, graphite reels, monofilament lines, neoprene waders, creels, tackleboxes, lures, flies, spinners, worm rigs, slip sinkers, offset hooks, gore-tex hats, 20 pocket vests, fish finders, depth sounders, radar, boats, trailers, global positioning systems, coolers, and six-packs. And another perspective (for the ladies): Teach a man to fish and you can get rid of him for the entire weekend. -- Roland Perry Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 09:22.

On 17:06, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at 16:13:35 on >Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Charlie Hulme >remarked: >>What about situations where the return half of an off-peak is >>not valid in the evening peak? The machine still has to sell >>those in the middle of the day, so I don't see why it can't >>sell one at 09:15 to someone who fancies a coffee at the >>station Starbucks before catching the 09:40. >>That's slightly different, not least because the machines don't >ask you when you are coming back (unlike the bloke behind the >window).

So how do you know when you can use it is there is no bloke? >The assumption if you are buying a 'ticket for today' is >that you'll be wanting to use the outbound portion immediately. All that's needed is 'Valid after 09:30 only' on the screen. Why should you have to hang around in the ticket hall just because you have arrived a little early for your train?

The one at Stockport station has a grand total of just three seats outside the barriers. Charlie Roland Perry 01.03.16 09:28. In message, at 14:33:48 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >On 2016-03-01 11:34:47 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>tickets.

They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, >>though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they >>*are* valid[1]. >>A better way would be to have them shown, but with the button grey. On >pressing it, a popup would say 'This ticket is not valid at present. >Validity is as follows: (single line restriction summary).

I can tell you've not read J8. >You may only purchase this ticket from this machine during the times it >is valid'.

>>>[1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last >>invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB >>to see if it's actually left yet. >>For all the difference it would make in practice, it would probably >make sense to allow their use on a delayed peak-time train. AIUI the restriction is on when a train is *timetabled* to arrive in London (in NSE) or *timetabled* to depart locally (in most of the rest of the country).

A train that's 10 minutes late leaving for London may well catch up en-route, and what with recovery time actually arrive before 10am. Are we to equip ticket machines with crystal balls too? -- Roland Perry Neil Williams 01.03.16 09:44. On 2016-03-01 17:21:07 +0000, Roland Perry said: >I can tell you've not read J8.

It will still have a (possibly partial) one-line summary, they all do. >AIUI the restriction is on when a train is *timetabled* to arrive in >London (in NSE) or *timetabled* to depart locally (in most of the rest >of the country).

>>A train that's 10 minutes late leaving for London may well catch up >en-route, and what with recovery time actually arrive before 10am. Are >we to equip ticket machines with crystal balls too? That's what the restriction is, but it could be changed. Ian Batten 01.03.16 09:46. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 17:17:46 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >08:04:15 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten >remarked: >>>And thirdly, who are these people who are able to travel solo but >>cannot use ticket machines? Or are they a figment of the 'old people, >>they're all a bit thick' stereotype?

>>No, they are people who haven't picked up the skills to use technology, >and are now too old to learn new tricks. Roland, you realise that you're now - in the eyes of many - in precisely that age group? >>>It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than online, ditto order from >>Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you think that there are no customers over 65? >>My parents and my in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s.

>>And older consumers either choose to use a more tractable supplier (like >an airline who sells tickets via a High Street agent) or get someone to >help them. Or they don't, and just use the website like everyone else. Are you planning to stop using technology now you've got a Senior railcard? Someone who is eighty now was in their 50s when computers became available as home propositions.

Ian Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 09:46. On 16:42, Recliner wrote: >>That's certainly true, but with a touch screen user interface >it's also possible to engineer an interface for older people, >with larger fonts, big buttons and maybe longer timeouts. >Obviously that requires the effort to create such an >interface, but it might be cheaper than manning offices. >Assuming that the person in the office doesn't have other value, maybe.

But then the high cost of computer systems is often well hidden. Charlie Sam Wilson 01.03.16 09:57. In article, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 11:34:47 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>tickets. They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, >>though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they >>*are* valid[1]. >>A better way would be to have them shown, but with the button grey.

On >pressing it, a popup would say 'This ticket is not valid at present. >Validity is as follows: (single line restriction summary). You may >only purchase this ticket from this machine during the times it is >valid'. It should say 'you can only *use* this ticket during the times it is valid - the first train you can use it on is the XX:XX'. >>[1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last >>invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB >>to see if it's actually left yet. >>For all the difference it would make in practice, it would probably >make sense to allow their use on a delayed peak-time train. But why restrict the sale at all - that's just making life difficult.

Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Sam Wilson 01.03.16 09:58. In article, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 13:49:51 +0000, ian batten said: >>>Starbucks has to be manned anyway, and don't take table bookings. But >>increasingly, >>restaurants do online bookings, and there's more expectation that you >>will.

I can >>imagine that in a few years, closing for the session if there's no >>bookings will become >>more common, rather than staying open in the hope of a walk-in or two. >>Or avoid what I had the other week on a Sunday evening, where just >about everywhere in Edinburgh had closed early because it was quiet, >and the only option was McD's, pretty much. That's not an Edinburgh I recognise, though it might apply to the station catering outlets. What time of day was that? Graeme Wall 01.03.16 09:58. In message, at 17:44:01 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>I can tell you've not read J8.

>>It will still have a (possibly partial) one-line summary, they all do. I can tell you've not read J8. >>AIUI the restriction is on when a train is *timetabled* to arrive in >>London (in NSE) or *timetabled* to depart locally (in most of the rest >>of the country).

>>A train that's 10 minutes late leaving for London may well catch up >>en-route, and what with recovery time actually arrive before 10am. Are >>we to equip ticket machines with crystal balls too? >>That's what the restriction is, but it could be changed. Would that mean any peak train leaving a station late, that given its published travel time to London would then arrive after 10am, could be used with off-peak tickets? Sounds like a rather complex rule.

To give a practical example, the 0826 from Ely to Kings Cross is timetabled to arrive at 0945; if it's predicted to leave 16 minutes late, should the ticket machine be aware of that, and start selling off-peak tickets at 0757[1] on the grounds that if it doesn't catch up any time it'll arrive in London just after 10am? [1] One minute after the previous train, due to arrive London 0910 has departed on time. -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 01.03.16 10:09. There are always badly designed websites. That doesn't invalidate the concept of websites. In the case of services offered to the public, with some caveats, websites necessary for accessing those services fall under disability rights and accessibility regulations, so if the effect of the website is to exclude people who use screen readers (or whatever) then they're illegal for UK companies: that was one of the many things that mercifully killed flash. We would, in general, do much better attempting to enforce accessibility on service websites, providing equipment and training to non-users and (as Neil suggests) providing free travel to the small number of edge cases for whom this doesn't work, rather than attempting Canute-like (and yes, I'm aware that Canute was in fact staging a demonstration to his courtiers that he _couldn't_ stop the sea rising) to roll the tide back.

Ticket sales for transport will all be online and/or card-based within a decade. That can either be done in a way which is accessible and lovely, or it can be done badly, but it's going to be done. The people going 'oh, what about the goat herders' over Oyster have lost on the buses, will shortly lose on the underground and short-haul overground can't be long after that. Just as all the yelling and bad-faith invocation of the old folk didn't save pound notes or cheque guarantee cards, it's not going to save old ticketing mechanisms either. Ian BevanPrice 01.03.16 10:47. On 16:42, Recliner wrote: The main problem with ticket machines is that they have to cater with a fares system that is fiendishly complicated, and in many cases bl***y stupid. For example, there needs to be a sensible national definition of what constitutes 'peak hours' rather than allowing individual TOCs to invent & vary their own defintions.

As just one example, how is a non-regular traveller expected to know that you can return from Manchester at 17:00 to Liverpool or Leeds with an off-peak return, but you cannot return to Warrington or Wigan until after the evening peak? Graeme Wall 01.03.16 10:48. Aren't there just! >>That doesn't invalidate the concept of websites. Certainly, it was just me having whinge as I'd tried to use it today:-) >>In the case of services offered to the public, with some caveats, websites >necessary for accessing those services fall under disability rights and accessibility >regulations, so if the effect of the website is to exclude people who use >screen readers (or whatever) then they're illegal for UK companies: that was >one of the many things that mercifully killed flash. >>We would, in general, do much better attempting to enforce accessibility >on service websites, providing equipment and training to non-users and >(as Neil suggests) providing free travel to the small number of edge cases >for whom this doesn't work, rather than attempting Canute-like (and yes, >I'm aware that Canute was in fact staging a demonstration to his courtiers >that he _couldn't_ stop the sea rising) to roll the tide back.

Ticket sales >for transport will all be online and/or card-based within a decade. As a totally irrelevant aside, local mythology has it that Knut staged his demonstration on the shores of Southampton Water. Martin Coffee 01.03.16 11:06. On 01/03/16 18:09, ian batten wrote: >in a way which is accessible and lovely, or it can be done badly, but it's >going to be done. The people going 'oh, what about the goat herders' >over Oyster have lost on the buses, will shortly lose on the underground >and short-haul overground can't be long after that. Just as all the >yelling and bad-faith invocation of the old folk didn't save pound notes >or cheque guarantee cards, it's not going to save old ticketing mechanisms >either.

But it did save the cheque book. Martin Coffee 01.03.16 11:10. On 01/03/16 18:01, Roland Perry wrote: >Would that mean any peak train leaving a station late, that given its >published travel time to London would then arrive after 10am, could be >used with off-peak tickets?

Sounds like a rather complex rule. >>To give a practical example, the 0826 from Ely to Kings Cross is >timetabled to arrive at 0945; if it's predicted to leave 16 minutes >late, should the ticket machine be aware of that, and start selling >off-peak tickets at 0757[1] on the grounds that if it doesn't catch up >any time it'll arrive in London just after 10am? >>[1] One minute after the previous train, due to arrive London 0910 has >departed on time. >-- Somewhere I've read that the restrictions apply to the timetable not the running time. For the life of me I cannot remember where. Jeremy Double 01.03.16 11:19.

Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 13:54:04 +0000, Jeremy Double said: >>>Elderly people who cannot cope with computers would probably also have >>trouble with ticket machines, of any description other than the simplest. >>We will reach a point, we possibly already have, where it would be >cheaper to provide training for those people. There are enough 'silver >surfers' that I can't really accept that they can't. And I don't think >the economy or society needs to provide for 'won'ts', only 'can'ts'. Good luck with one or two of the people I know who I have tried to help (and I have run use of computers classes professionally, so I know what I am doing).

There are some people who seem not to be able to 'get' computers at all. -- Jeremy Double Ian Batten 01.03.16 11:28. It didn't really. Shorn of the cheque guarantee scheme (oh, the howling) cheques are essentially useless for most of the purposes they were once used for. Very few people under 35 have a cheque book (they've not been offered to new customers for fifteen years) so a business which relies on cheques is an inherently past-tense business.

The volume of cheques is dropping year on year and businesses are charged more and more to process them. To shut up a few noisy lobby groups they've been given a walking zombie financial instrument because it's not worth anyone's while to finally kill it.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Ian Ian Batten 01.03.16 11:29. On 14:24, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >05:49:51 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten >remarked: >>And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone >>anyway. >>Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for >one-offs. Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. Some TOCs are looking at using PayPal or similar to avoid the need for registration, on the assumption that 'everyone' has a PayPal account already (for buying goats on eBay). -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK Recliner 01.03.16 12:36.

'ian batten' wrote in message news:c086c4be-38a9-431a-a30f-6b9e5baca124@googlegroups.com. >On Monday, 29 February 2016 18:26:55 UTC, tim.

Wrote: >>'ian batten' wrote in message >>news:87395a6a-3abc-4dd4-b43e-3dbf3b103d6c@googlegroups.com. >>>On Monday, 29 February 2016 17:28:11 UTC, jon b wrote: >>>>In my view, unless and until ticket machines have available >>>>the full range of tickets that can be obtained from a ticket office >>>>>>Which ticket that would be required by a walk-up customer who isn't >>>attempting to get a goat group save valid only on Jewish holidays >>>with a disabled armed forces railcard isn't available from the >>>machines?

>>>>It's obvious that you don't read all of the posts here >>>>There have been several previous complaints of local 'special' (walk up) >>tickets that are unavailable from machines, across several UK regions >>Note the word 'required'. Presumably they could still make the journey. TOCs have an 'obligation' to offer the punter the cheapest (individual) ticket for the journey that he is undertaking. Whilst there is no doubt going to be obvious difficulties with conveying the information about the cheapest ticket only through a machine, that is a 'problem' that can't be avoided when downgrading a station However, not offering that ticket at all, is not IMHO tim Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 13:10. On 18:09, ian batten wrote: >>In the case of services offered to the public, with some >caveats, websites necessary for accessing those services fall >under disability rights and accessibility regulations, so if >the effect of the website is to exclude people who use screen >readers (or whatever) then they're illegal for UK companies: >that was one of the many things that mercifully killed flash. >Are the ticketing websites either their complex matrices of alternatives and links to extra info, really capable of being used with a screen-reader?

Meanwhile, Arriva North is promising to put staff on more stations than Northern has. Charlie Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 13:18.

On 16:25, ian batten wrote: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 15:25:43 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>Of course the economy and society can afford it. The typical wage >>for the job is little more than unemployment benefit anyway. >>You are absolutely joking. It's what the staff tell me;-) Round here we have stations staffed in the morning only, which is a good compromise. Of course I'm wrong in looking from a non-London perspective given the thread title. Charlie Ian Batten 01.03.16 13:22.

Who do you think bought £399 BBC Model Bs, in a time when that represented about a quarter of a generous student grant, so the equivalent of two grand now? Grandchildren out of their pocket money? And since when did fifty year olds have grandchildren using BBC Bs? At the time, my memory is that middle class fathers bought them to dick around with in the company of their children, and to use themselves: the market for Rolands PCWs was vicars and school teachers, not children.

And aside from that, who the hell do you think designed, built, operated and used the mainframe and mini computers of the 1960s? How did all that software get written? How were all those manufacturing systems programmed? The idea that computers belong only to young people now is ludicrous. Ian Ian Batten 01.03.16 13:23.

On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 21:14:50 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >On 18:09, ian batten wrote: >>>>>In the case of services offered to the public, with some >>caveats, websites necessary for accessing those services fall >>under disability rights and accessibility regulations, so if >>the effect of the website is to exclude people who use screen >>readers (or whatever) then they're illegal for UK companies: >>that was one of the many things that mercifully killed flash. >>>>>Are the ticketing websites either their complex matrices of >alternatives and links to extra info, really capable of being >used with a screen-reader? I've worked on a research project which involves using screen readers to describe 3-D chemical structures. So my guess is 'yes'. Ian Recliner 01.03.16 13:43. Now you're being really obtuse. I didn't say the grandchildren *bought* the microcomputers with their own money.

They were bought as presents by parents or grandparents. >>And since when did fifty year olds have grandchildren using BBC Bs? BBC Bs were used by children, not by many 50+ year olds.

I should know: my boss fronted the BBC's TV series, and we regularly discussed his filming sessions some 35 years ago. And how many 50+ year olds ever used a Spectrum? >>At the time, my memory is that middle class fathers bought them to >dick around with in the company of their children, and to use themselves: >the market for Rolands PCWs was vicars and school teachers, not children. I think you mix in rather more technical circles than most people. I agree that the PCWs were aimed at adults, not children or businesses.

>>And aside from that, who the hell do you think designed, built, operated >and used the mainframe and mini computers of the 1960s? How did >all that software get written? How were all those manufacturing systems >programmed? The idea that computers belong only to young people now >is ludicrous.

I was in the computer industry then, earning a good living, so I know exactly who built, operated, programmed and wrote software packages for mainframe computers. Sorry to disillusion you, but it wasn't 55 year old amateurs. If you want to patronise everyone, be careful who you pick on. Jeremy Double 01.03.16 14:34. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 21:43:01 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>And aside from that, who the hell do you think designed, built, operated >>and used the mainframe and mini computers of the 1960s?

How did >>all that software get written? How were all those manufacturing systems >>programmed? The idea that computers belong only to young people now >>is ludicrous. >>I was in the computer industry then, earning a good living, so I know >exactly who built, operated, programmed and wrote software packages for >mainframe computers.

Sorry to disillusion you, but it wasn't 55 year old >amateurs I didn't say it was. But it was done by perfectly ordinary adults who, being 35 in the 1960s, are now in their late 70s. Ian BevanPrice 01.03.16 14:51. Yes, and what proportion of their surviving cohort were computer professionals back then? More than one per cent?

So maybe 0.001%? What about the other 99.999% whom you will probably describe as goat herders? The aim isn't to cater for the handful of long-retired versions of you, but everyone else. You might just as well insist on all UIs being only in Esperanto, though there were probably more Esperanto speakers in the 1960s than computer professionals. BTW, you don't need to be a mainframe systems programmer to know that people who were 35 in the 1960s are no longer in their 70s today. Richard 01.03.16 15:24.

I pay driving instructors for my children by direct transfer. The locksmith who came to change a couple of mortices last month had one of those little clip-ons on his phone to process cards. The guy who's painting my kitchen wants a bank transfer. I paid for some printing work last week to a sole trader by Paypal.

I pay my window cleaner in cash out of habit, but I gather he now take Paypal (probably because _he_ doesn't want to deal with a load of cash). The carpet cleaning bloke did a card not present transaction over the phone to his office. We paid for a skip by debit card, again card not present over the phone. I think we paid the over cleaning guy by bank transfer. I have a cheque book, but I've written I think one in the past year. In all these cases, bank transfer replaces 'cheque in the post', because they know where you are, having delivered service, and because most people are honest.and the rate of failure to pay is (I gather from a tradesman I asked) a great deal lower than the rate of bounced cheques.

Who are these tradesmen who don't have bank accounts? How did they take cheques, then? Why they not be able to accept online payments which end up in their account in precisely the same way? If the money arrives it's the same as a cheque clearing, if it doesn't, it's like a cheque bouncing (but cheaper and easier). What's the problem? I use cash in the farmers' market (who never accepted cheques, of course), but even then I've seen machines creeping in.

Ian Ian Batten 01.03.16 15:39. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:17:32 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>The aim isn't to cater for the handful of long-retired versions of you, but >everyone else. Who are currently using laptops, iPads, calculators, mobile phones, Smart TV with iPlayer, Facebook, Skyping their grand children (one of the core constituencies for Skype, I believe) and so on and so on. The 'elderly people who don't use anything electronic' mostly exist in the imagination of people who think they're alternative for not having direct debits. One can question the methodology, but the numbers in this don't look unreasonable: And, bluntly, the people who don't use any technology are not going to an issue in ten years' time.

The idea that the cohort born in 1950, currently retiring, who were 30 in 1980 and 40 in 1990, are all stood there puzzled about how to plug an electric kettle is preposterous. The cohort born in 1940, now in their mid 70s, didn't retire until 2005: what jobs were they doing to remain untainted by the touch of the keyboard and mouse? Even the cohort born in the 1930s were retiring in the late 1990s: again, what were they doing to remain untouched by modernity? Building policy for services around people born in the 1920s isn't a long-term plan. Ian Recliner 01.03.16 15:57.

Ian batten wrote: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:17:32 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>>The aim isn't to cater for the handful of long-retired versions of you, but >>everyone else. >>Who are currently using laptops, iPads, calculators, mobile phones, >Smart TV with iPlayer, Facebook, Skyping their grand children (one of >the core constituencies for Skype, I believe) and so on and so on. The >'elderly people who don't use anything electronic' mostly exist in the >imagination of people who think they're alternative for not having direct >debits. Except that I meet them all the time.

You must live in a rarified group. >>One can question the methodology, but the numbers in this don't >look unreasonable: >>>>And, bluntly, the people who don't use any technology are not going to >an issue in ten years' time. The idea that the cohort born in 1950, >currently retiring, who were 30 in 1980 and 40 in 1990, are all stood >there puzzled about how to plug an electric kettle is preposterous. >The cohort born in 1940, now in their mid 70s, didn't retire until 2005: >what jobs were they doing to remain untainted by the touch of the >keyboard and mouse? Even the cohort born in the 1930s were retiring in >the late 1990s: again, what were they doing to remain untouched >by modernity? Building policy for services around people born in the >1920s isn't a long-term plan.

Perhaps you never meet these Luddites, but I do, all the time. Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back them up, let alone post-process them.

Their cameras are always in iAuto mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had no such mode? And as for shooting RAW, I hardly meet anyone who even knows what it is.

I meet people in their 60s and older who have never used a computer, and retired rather than learn, once there was no choice. Some now own iPads, but make minimal use of their features (not even iPlayer).

How many have never learned to use any PC browser but IE or use anything but Safari in the Apple kingdom? Some do use Skype, but someone else set it up for them. How many of them ever use online banking?

I even meet people who rely on paper catalogues rather than web sites. Many are barely capable of using a search engine, and can't formulate complex queries. Shockingly, I can assure you that not all 80 year olds are fluent in Boolean logic. So, yes, your idealised version of the world as almost as false as Mr Bell's.

Ian Batten 01.03.16 16:10. On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >no such mode? No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure. You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered manuals, was common are you? And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in 1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) and full-manual SLRs withered pretty quickly from then onwards. >And as for shooting RAW, I hardly meet anyone who even knows >what it is.

I know precisely what it is, and still don't bother to use it. I leave all my cameras in full auto almost all the time, for the same reason my automatic transmission doesn't move out of 'D' more than once in a blue moon. Could you tell me what experiences my life is lacking by not using RAW mode? Indeed, by not post-processing pictures, come to that? I can burn and dodge black and white prints with the best of them, and I've even done some of my own colour D&P and dicked around with Technical Pan as a continuous tone film, but I'm perfectly happy to let digital cameras do their thing on auto.

>I meet people in their 60s and older who have never used a computer, and >retired rather than learn, once there was no choice. Some now own iPads, >but make minimal use of their features (not even iPlayer). Again, so what? They're using them, even if not in the way you approve of. >How many have never learned to use any PC browser but IE or use anything >but Safari in the Apple kingdom?

Again, so what? I've spent a lifetime in computing, and I use Safari on Macs because it's pretty good. What's the sudden obsession with installing alternative browsers? >Some do use Skype, but someone else set >it up for them. How many of them ever use online banking? A large proportion, to judge from the banks' statistics. >I even meet people who rely on paper catalogues rather than web sites.

Many >are barely capable of using a search engine, and can't formulate complex >queries. Shockingly, I can assure you that not all 80 year olds are fluent >in Boolean logic.

Since Google barely supports such queries and Alta Vista isn't working any more, so what? I'm struggling to think when I last used a query with boolean operators in: I'm not sure I even know how to with Google. My boolean algebra is perfectly fine, thanks, and you're welcome to come to a tutorial I'm running on Friday, but I'm not sure I've used it in searches in years.

>So, yes, your idealised version of the world as almost as false as Mr >Bell's. Well, we'll see over the coming ten years who's right. Ian Neil Williams 01.03.16 16:28. On 2016-03-01 22:34:21 +0000, Jeremy Double said: >Someone I knew who owned and used a PCW in the 1980s lost the ability to >write or use a computer due to Alzheimer's before they were incapable of >travelling by train or bus.

That's called a disability, and it is often far easier and cheaper to provide specific workarounds for those with disabilities (such as completely free travel) than to provide them for everyone. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Neil Williams 01.03.16 16:30. On 2016-03-01 17:58:49 +0000, Sam Wilson said: >That's not an Edinburgh I recognise, though it might apply to the >station catering outlets. What time of day was that? About 2100, but by the time I'd wandered around a bit it was 2200, which I think is the closing time of the station M&S. Just about everywhere around the station (that end of Princes St) seemed to be closing early, and nowhere seemed to show a closing time after 2200. FWIW, this was a Sunday evening and a very quiet one at that. I was surprised and a little miffed.

Neil Williams 01.03.16 16:33. On 2016-03-01 23:12:05 +0000, BevanPrice said: >So how do people pay the numerous 'tradespeople' (self-employed >builders / plumbers / house painters, etc.) who are not equipped to >process credit cards / paypal / whatever.? I don't want to go around >carrying several hundred pounds of cash from the bank. BACS, or whatever it is called this week, directly into their bank account.

The Germans have been settling all bills that way for years, and a copy of their paper Ueberweisungsauftrag deposited at your own bank branch, who woudl then make the electronic transfer for you, would have been an entirely adequate replacement for the cheque. Neil Williams 01.03.16 16:36. On 2016-03-01 21:15:34 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >Meanwhile, Arriva North is promising to put staff on more stations than >Northern has. I don't oppose station staff, but a bank of 20 TVMs with a member of staff assisting people to use them and otherwise walking around and being a helpful presence on the station is much more use than a person behind a glass screen. Why is it only VT, and only at Euston, where the glass screens have been removed? Shops don't have glass screens.

And nor, other than at smaller stations, is the ticket office clerk the only human on the station, the others also not being behind glass. Neil Williams 01.03.16 16:37.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:36:43 +0000, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 21:15:34 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>Meanwhile, Arriva North is promising to put staff on more stations than >>Northern has. >>I don't oppose station staff, but a bank of 20 TVMs with a member of >staff assisting people to use them and otherwise walking around and >being a helpful presence on the station is much more use than a person >behind a glass screen.

>What might not be absolutely necessary is for the person behind the glass screen to be physically present. Using video links could be a more suitable method for dealing with passengers with the more difficult requirements exceeding the time and resources available to the chap(ess) looking after the local machines.

>Why is it only VT, and only at Euston, where the glass screens have >been removed? >Because both sides are 'indoors'? (Isn't KGX still the same?).

>Shops don't have glass screens. >They don't generally need them as the customers are sharing an area with workers who are working in 'indoors' conditions.

They do often have them where something other than simple selling is occurring. >And nor, other than at >smaller stations, is the ticket office clerk the only human on the >station, the others also not being behind glass. >There are not many 'others' at non-small stations nowadays. Charles Ellson 01.03.16 17:24. On 2016-03-01 12:00, ian batten wrote: >I'd just say that the progress of every other form >of ticketing, be it for theatres, planes or whatever, is towards 'buy online, >then collect' and you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you think that model >should not prevail. I suggest that the progress of ticketing is towards 'buy online, use online' and not bother with collecting bits of card. I can get into my local cinema with an emailed barcode ticket on my phone.

Various organisations are happy with email printouts - SPI with a ticket, Italian rail with a booking code emailed to me as part of a holiday itinerary. I'd even have tried it on non-HS UK rail if XC actually offered print at home tickets rather than merely claiming to do so on their website. -- Graham Nye news(a) Charles Ellson 01.03.16 17:36. On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:10:31 -0800 (PST), ian batten wrote: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >>their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >>them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >>mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >>no such mode? >>No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure. >You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered >manuals, was common are you?

And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in >1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) >Only automatic exposure? AFAIR combining that with autofocus and SLR came later. Recliner 01.03.16 18:02. Charles Ellson wrote: >On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:10:31 -0800 (PST), ian batten >wrote: >>>On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>>Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >>>their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >>>them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >>>mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >>>no such mode?

>>>>No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure. >>You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered >>manuals, was common are you? And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in >>1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) >>>Only automatic exposure?

AFAIR combining that with autofocus and SLR >came later. Yes, about a decade later. And anything resembling iAuto is 21st century. As usual, Ian has grossly overstated his case. Ian Batten 01.03.16 23:05. So what's your poin? That using raw, a manual SLR and an alternative brwser are the sine qua non of being able to buy a train ticket online?

SLRs were always niche, aside from anything else because of the price of them and the perceived complexity of loading 35mm film. I'm not clear what you're trying to argue: that people who were able to twist the focus on an SLR are now degenerate because they use autofocus now? That use of a camera in full-auto is proof that they're idiots? That cameras requiring manual focus were ever more than a tiny fraction of the market because most cameras were fixed-focus 110s and 126s?

That unless you can compute the reciprocity failure of film in your head you're technologically incapable? It appears you're just reeling off a list of things you think are important skills, that never had any mass traction anyway, and deeming anyone who can't do them not really capable of using computers. Installing alternative browsers is for fiddlers: the one that came with the computer works perfectly well. Using manual focus is for fiddlers: most people just want the picture to be sharp, not to use an opened-up aperture to minimise depth of field like it's still the forward of a book by Poucher and 25 ASA is 'high speed'. Using RAW is for nutters, and is completely pointless for anyone doing less than substantial post-processing prior to printing at 30x20.

People who do none of these things can still, amazingly, buy traini tickets. Ian Charlie Hulme 01.03.16 23:28.

On 00:39, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 21:19:19 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>Of course I'm wrong in looking from a non-London perspective >>given the thread title. >>How do the needs of a Manchester commuter in ticketing terms >differ from the needs of a London commuter (outside the Oyster >area)?

That comment was about staff wages. I think there are many differences, particularly regarding travellers who are not 'commuters' due to the messy range of tickets with varying validities. If you don't mind, I'll retire from this topic now. Charlie Martin Coffee 01.03.16 23:42. On 01:16, Charles Ellson wrote: >On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:36:43 +0000, Neil Williams >wrote: >>>On 2016-03-01 21:15:34 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>>>Meanwhile, Arriva North is promising to put staff on more stations than >>>Northern has. >>>>I don't oppose station staff, but a bank of 20 TVMs with a member of >>staff assisting people to use them and otherwise walking around and >>being a helpful presence on the station is much more use than a person >>behind a glass screen. >>>What might not be absolutely necessary is for the person behind the >glass screen to be physically present.

Using video links could be a >more suitable method for dealing with passengers with the more >difficult requirements exceeding the time and resources available to >the chap(ess) looking after the local machines. >>>Why is it only VT, and only at Euston, where the glass screens have >>been removed? >>>Because both sides are 'indoors'? (Isn't KGX still the same?). >>>Shops don't have glass screens.

>>>They don't generally need them as the customers are sharing an area >with workers who are working in 'indoors' conditions. They do often >have them where something other than simple selling is occurring. Back when Ian Batten were a lad[1] you'd find the cashier in some shops in a little glassed in booth in a corner.

Bigger shops had pneumatic or mechanical 'railways' to send the money to a central point out of site of the punters. [1] All right, when I were a lad.

Recliner 02.03.16 00:30. Ian batten wrote: >On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 02:02:56 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>Charles Ellson wrote: >>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:10:31 -0800 (PST), ian batten >>>wrote: >>>>>>>On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>>>>>>Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >>>>>their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >>>>>them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >>>>>mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >>>>>no such mode? >>>>>>>>No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure. >>>>You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered >>>>manuals, was common are you? And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in >>>>1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) >>>>>>>Only automatic exposure? AFAIR combining that with autofocus and SLR >>>came later.

>>>>Yes, about a decade later. And anything resembling iAuto is 21st century. >>>>As usual, Ian has grossly overstated his case. >>So what's your poin? That using raw, a manual SLR and an alternative >brwser are the sine qua non of being able to buy a train ticket online? As usual, you're imputing arguments to me that I never made, and over-egging your case.

You'd be more credible if you argued against things that were actually said, not your own rhetoric. >>SLRs were always niche, aside from anything else because of the price >of them and the perceived complexity of loading 35mm film. You seem to forget that lots of fixed lens cameras were also 35mm. And SLRs were relatively more popular then than now, because the alternatives were so much worse, and because zoom lenses were not nearly as prevalent as now. Using prime lenses is now for the very few; then it was for the masses. >I'm not >clear what you're trying to argue: that people who were able to twist the >focus on an SLR are now degenerate because they use autofocus now? No, that's *not* what I said.

>That use of a camera in full-auto is proof that they're idiots? >That cameras requiring manual focus were ever more than a tiny fraction >of the market because most cameras were fixed-focus 110s and 126s? >That unless you can compute the reciprocity failure of film in your head >you're technologically incapable?

No, that's *not* what I said. >>It appears you're just reeling off a list of things you think are important >skills, that never had any mass traction anyway, and deeming anyone who >can't do them not really capable of using computers. Installing alternative >browsers is for fiddlers: the one that came with the computer works >perfectly well. Using manual focus is for fiddlers: most people just want >the picture to be sharp, not to use an opened-up aperture to >minimise depth of field like it's still the forward of a book by Poucher and >25 ASA is 'high speed'.

Using RAW is for nutters, and is completely pointless >for anyone doing less than substantial post-processing prior to printing >at 30x20. No, that's *not* what I said. You seem to define the ideal as being calibrated very precisely by you: any more techie is a complete nerd, any less an ignorant goat herder, unworthy of being served, and worthy of a death sentence. >People who do none of these things can still, amazingly, buy >traini tickets. I must admit that buying trani tickets is something I've not yet mastered. Roland Perry 02.03.16 00:45. In message, at 20:47:01 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, tim.

Remarked: >>>There have been several previous complaints of local 'special' (walk up) >>>tickets that are unavailable from machines, across several UK regions >>>>Note the word 'required'. Presumably they could still make the journey. >>TOCs have an 'obligation' to offer the punter the cheapest (individual) >ticket for the journey that he is undertaking.

I think the obligation only extends to buying from a person at the station; not even a person on a train, let alone machines or on the web. It is nevertheless sub-optimal when a machine doesn't give a passenger the full range of tickets available, for the passenger to make his own choice. -- Roland Perry Graeme Wall 02.03.16 01:02.

In message, at 08:19:30 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me. But they >>>just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a combination >>>That is the business's error, and it will cost them. >>And 'application X didn't work, so all computers are rubbish' is a pretty >thin argument. That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens online being open-loop.

In the case of the restaurant the booking platform did give me a confirmation number, but I didn't write it down; one has to hope that things you've booked will be available and that money you pay is properly recorded. People's experience over the years with Oyster overcharging aren't exactly a shining example of 'the computer always gets it right'.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 01:05. In message, at 15:00:17 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >On 2016-03-01 14:24:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>The other side of the coin is why would someone use the Internet to >>book a £2.50 train ticket, when a properly configured machine at the >>station would be a better solution. >>I'd use my phone, personally, particularly if it could be held on the >phone rather than having to faff about printing it.

The majority of my train travel is 'on expenses', and I prefer to have the coupons both as a receipt and to remind me to claim. >>That's a lot to do with their flat-fare system and the closed system >>which is TfL. If I were to plan a day trip to Manchester (where I >>haven't been for several years) is it reasonable to expect me to buy >>whatever Manchester's version of Oyster is, in anticipation? >>You could use contactless.

Are there many bus operators outside London who accept contactless credit cards? >Or you could have machines that allow you to insert the amount of money >of your choosing (or pay that by card), plus a card deposit, and it'll >spit one out. The same machine could refund it once done. >>>>And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by >>>phone anyway. >>Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for >>one-offs.

Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. >>There are only a few such systems in use, and the one you are likely to >want to use is the one used locally. I use RingGo quite frequently, MK >Council use it as do a few train companies (though sadly not LM). >>>The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me.

But >>they just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a >>combination of walk-ins and phone bookings). The several dozen people >>who arrived later that evening, whose online bookings had disappeared >>into the same black hole, were not so lucky. >>Not a good evening for either the restaurant or its customers. At >>around £30 a head plus drinks (which is expensive for where we live) >>that's not the kind of service to expect. If I'd been the proprietor, >>I might have wondered in advance why on that very busy Friday evening >>apparently no online bookings had been made.

>>That is the business's error, and it will cost them. It appeared to be an error within the online booking platform they were using. Whether the platform was eating the bookings, or they were somehow failing to collect them from the platform wasn't clear. -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 01:05. In message, at 19:54:38 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Arthur Figgis remarked: >>>And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone >>>anyway.

>>>>Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for >>one-offs. Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. >>Some TOCs are looking at using PayPal or similar to avoid the need for >registration, on the assumption that 'everyone' has a PayPal account >already (for buying goats on eBay). Just to show I'm not completely technophobic, I've got PayPal contactless debit card - and it works of TfL. -- Roland Perry Recliner 02.03.16 01:07.

Yes, I always feel uncomfortable when a recorded digital voice apologises for something other than a duff computer system. It's also annoying that the apology is, of course, always identical. It would be better if they recorded a few different versions of the apology, and chose them at random. Perhaps they could also have different wordings, depending on whether it's something minor, such as a slightly delayed train, and something more serious, like a cancellation of all services. Recliner 02.03.16 01:15.

In message, at 11:28:42 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:06:18 UTC, Martin Coffee wrote: >>On 01/03/16 18:09, ian batten wrote: >>>in a way which is accessible and lovely, or it can be done badly, but it's >>>going to be done. The people going 'oh, what about the goat herders' >>>over Oyster have lost on the buses, will shortly lose on the underground >>>and short-haul overground can't be long after that. Just as all the >>>yelling and bad-faith invocation of the old folk didn't save pound notes >>>or cheque guarantee cards, it's not going to save old ticketing mechanisms >>>either. >>But it did save the cheque book.

>>It didn't really. Shorn of the cheque guarantee scheme (oh, the howling) >cheques are essentially useless for most of the purposes they were once >used for. Very few people under 35 have a cheque book (they've not been >offered to new customers for fifteen years) so a business which relies on >cheques is an inherently past-tense business. The volume of cheques is >dropping year on year and businesses are charged more and more to >process them.

To shut up a few noisy lobby groups they've been given >a walking zombie financial instrument because it's not worth anyone's >while to finally kill it. Enjoy it while it lasts. There are still some services (mainly in the public sector) which require cheques[1]. I encountered one last week - a particular filing at Companies House which CANNOT be done online[2] and requires the £15 fee to be enclosed. DVLA's cherished numberplate scheme only accepts cheques, too, but perhaps that's for the old-farts market who still have a chequebook. [1] Or if we are being pedantic, they may also accept Postal Orders, I'm not sure.

[2] I rang them up and had moan, because they'd actually written to me imploring me to file online, but for the type of organisation (which they knew full well) it's not allowed. Their excuse appeared to be 'we send the same letter to all organisations, irrespective of whether we know that online filing is impossible for them'!!

-- Roland Perry Recliner 02.03.16 01:38. Yes, I used to when there was no choice, just as I used prime lenses when there were no zooms. I still use primes occasionally today, but zooms are usually my preferred option. But I gave up on film more than 15 years ago, and DSLRs more than five years ago.

I'm happy to take advantage of technology when it makes life easier, so I've also only had automatic gearboxes in my cars for the last 30 years. I could still drive a manual if I had to, but choose not to. My choices in technology are different from yours, but you seem to assume that your choice are the only correct option, with any others to be derided. Recliner 02.03.16 01:38. When I use an SLR, I typically use an OM1n fitted with the lovely Olympus diagonal split-screen you could buy as an option. I've got a weird voltage converter thing which makes a modern battery look like the now-banned Mercury battery it wants as a reference for the meter (you can also get even weirder zinc-air (?) batteries which you have to take a little cover off to activate, but go flat in three months) but usually I just guess the exposure as there's plenty of latitude in modern films. OM1s are completely mechanical and the battery only powers the meter (it's coupled, in that it picks up the shutter and aperture setting and gives you a +/-, but that's your lot; the shutter timing is clockwork).

I use chromogenic C41 B&W film and scan the negatives (that stuff has about five stops of latitude) or I have on a couple occasions since I gave up on darkrooms used a hand tank and a changing bag to process whatever Tri-X was called that week. So I can do all that macho 'real camera' shit. But mostly I use a digital camera which does face detection and just works. As most sane people do.

Why buy a dog and bark yourself? It's like people whose first response to an automatic gearbox is to try to see how to override it manually: why would you do that?

Do you want a car with a manual advance/. Retard lever in case the ignition advance isn't right for your taste, too? All over the country, older photographers are using digital cameras perfectly happily.

They aren't using RAW because it's completely pointless, they aren't post-processing because they just want to look at pictures of their grandchildren, just as they didn't hand-print selected negatives either, and they are grateful that the camera does the focus and exposure because even when they used to it by hand (and most of them didn't) they found half the pictures didn't come out. Ian Neil Williams 02.03.16 01:42. On 2016-03-02 08:56:04 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The majority of my train travel is 'on expenses', and I prefer to have >the coupons both as a receipt and to remind me to claim. Print out your emailed receipt, then. >Are there many bus operators outside London who accept contactless >credit cards?

We're talking futures here, not now, aren't we? (Stagecoach, Arriva and First have committed to implementing contactless in, I think, the next 5 years) >It appeared to be an error within the online booking platform they were >using. Whether the platform was eating the bookings, or they were >somehow failing to collect them from the platform wasn't clear. That of course is the restaurant's concern.

The non-function of a subcontracted service is the fault of the organisation doing the subcontracting from the point of view of the customer. I book a table with you, you're at fault if it is not honoured.

If that's because your subcontractor is crap, that's your fault, you contracted them, you manage them, and your business will fail if they are continuously crap. Yodel, for example, are crap, but it is the fault of businesses using them that they are still in business. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. Neil Williams 02.03.16 01:44. On 2016-03-02 08:59:59 +0000, Roland Perry said: >That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens >online being open-loop.

In the case of the restaurant the booking >platform did give me a confirmation number, but I didn't write it down; >one has to hope that things you've booked will be available and that >money you pay is properly recorded. You didn't receive a confirmation email and leave it in your inbox until you consume the service? That's how I generally do it (I operate a modified version of 'inbox zero', where I do leave things in the inbox for products/services to be consumed but not yet consumed). Roland Perry 02.03.16 01:45. In message, at 08:52:12 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Roland Perry remarked: >In message, at 20:47:01 on Tue, 1 Mar >2016, tim. Remarked: >>>>>There have been several previous complaints of local 'special' (walk up) >>>>tickets that are unavailable from machines, across several UK regions >>>>>>Note the word 'required'. Presumably they could still make the journey.

>>>>TOCs have an 'obligation' to offer the punter the cheapest >>(individual) ticket for the journey that he is undertaking. >>I think the obligation only extends to buying from a person at the >station; not even a person on a train, let alone machines or on the >web. The phrase to look for is 'Impartial point of sale'.

>It is nevertheless sub-optimal when a machine doesn't give a passenger >the full range of tickets available, for the passenger to make his own >choice. Here's what an Impartial Point of Sale is required to do (to ensure the most appropriate ticket is sold): Where the Agent is asked to recommend a suitable Fare.

It must request sufficient additional information to enable it to make the recommendation. This may (for example) include any of the following:- (i) the departure and/or arrival time required; (ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise the journey time involved; (iii) the importance to the person of the price of the Fare; (iv) whether the person minds changing trains; (v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which the person needs flexibility in their choice of trains for that journey; (vi) whether the person wants the flexibility of an Inter-available Fare; and (vii) any special requirements that the person has. If more than one Fare is suitable, the Agent must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.

-- Roland Perry Ian Batten 02.03.16 01:45. On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 09:35:57 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >>It didn't really. Shorn of the cheque guarantee scheme (oh, the howling) >>cheques are essentially useless for most of the purposes they were once >>used for. Very few people under 35 have a cheque book (they've not been >>offered to new customers for fifteen years) so a business which relies on >>cheques is an inherently past-tense business. The volume of cheques is >>dropping year on year and businesses are charged more and more to >>process them.

To shut up a few noisy lobby groups they've been given >>a walking zombie financial instrument because it's not worth anyone's >>while to finally kill it. Enjoy it while it lasts. >>There are still some services (mainly in the public sector) which >require cheques[1]. I encountered one last week - a particular filing at >Companies House which CANNOT be done online[2] I suspect that currently, there are very few companies which don't have chequebooks of some form. They were never able to use guarantee cards, of course, so less has changed for them.

Give it time, however. >and requires the £15 fee >to be enclosed. DVLA's cherished numberplate scheme only accepts >cheques, too, but perhaps that's for the old-farts market who still have Someone should tell the DVLA. 'You'll need a debit or credit card to use this service.' Ian rcp.@gmail.com 02.03.16 01:51.

On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 10:05:57 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >08:19:30 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten >remarked: >>>>>The last time I did that, the restaurant wasn't expecting me. But they >>>>just about squeezed my party of five in anyway (full of a combination >>>>>That is the business's error, and it will cost them. >>>>And 'application X didn't work, so all computers are rubbish' is a pretty >>thin argument.

>>That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens >online being open-loop. It is, though, a common view expressed when the topic of ticket machines replacing people comes up. When people say things like, 'what about making a reservation' or 'what about buying a ticket for ' or 'what about booking a ticket starting from not-here'. These are all things that ticket machines are capable of doing, it's just that the implimentation by most TOCs are lacking and limited, not providing a way to do them. Robin Recliner 02.03.16 01:53. When did I say people shouldn't use autofocus?

Of course they should and do. >It's like people >whose first response to an automatic gearbox is to try to see how to override >it manually: why would you do that?

Do you want a car with a manual advance/. >retard lever in case the ignition advance isn't right for your taste, too? Again, you're attacking an argument that only you made. >>All over the country, older photographers are using digital cameras perfectly >happily. They aren't using RAW because it's completely pointless, they aren't >post-processing because they just want to look at pictures of their grandchildren, >just as they didn't hand-print selected negatives either, and they are grateful that >the camera does the focus and exposure because even when they used to it >by hand (and most of them didn't) they found half the pictures didn't come out. Using RAW isn't completely pointless; it's quick, easy and very worthwhile.

Now it's you who's the Luddite. And, BTW, using RAW isn't a substitute for focusing properly, though it will help if the picture wasn't ideally exposed, had the wrong WB, needs more NR, etc. But as you define the epitome of human experience, anyone who doesn't do exactly what you do is obviously an idiot. We should all feel deeply grateful that you are here dictating to us exactly how we should use technology. We'd be lost without your instruction. Graeme Wall 02.03.16 01:53.

In message, at 13:23:24 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>Are the ticketing websites either their complex matrices of >>alternatives and links to extra info, really capable of being >>used with a screen-reader? >>I've worked on a research project which involves using screen >readers to describe 3-D chemical structures. So my guess is >'yes'. Can you point us to a screen reader which could be used on a TVM today? How do they work, is it some kind of camera which recognises things on the screen and does some voice generation? -- Roland Perry Neil Williams 02.03.16 02:05.

On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 09:53:36 UTC, Recliner wrote: >Using RAW isn't completely pointless; it's quick, easy and very worthwhile. As used by 0.0001% of the population. I'm not sure what this point is about: what is the relevance of RAW to anything to do with the man in the street using computers?

You suddenly introduced 'they don't even use RAW': what point were you making? Indeed, what was the relevance of cameras in the first place? >>But as you define the epitome of human experience, anyone who doesn't do >exactly what you do is obviously an idiot. We should all feel deeply >grateful that you are here dictating to us exactly how we should use >technology. We'd be lost without your instruction.

I'm not the one dismissing people's use of cameras because they don't use an obscure feature of no relevance (and indeed not fitted to the cameras owned by) the vast majority of the population. Are you seriously saying that all over 5the country there are people whose lives would be improved were they to buy an expensive camera and use it with an obscure feature, rather than just pointing their iPhone at things and pressing the button, and if they did this, they would be able to buy train tickets they previously couldn't? You point a camera at things. You get a picture which is roughly in focus and where the people in it are recognisable. Failure to use Ansel Adam's Zone System to do the exposure does not mean that you cannot buy train tickets.

Ian Roland Perry 02.03.16 02:25. In message, at 09:44:10 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens >>online being open-loop. In the case of the restaurant the booking >>platform did give me a confirmation number, but I didn't write it >>down; one has to hope that things you've booked will be available and >>that money you pay is properly recorded. >>You didn't receive a confirmation email and leave it in your inbox >until you consume the service? That's how I generally do it (I operate >a modified version of 'inbox zero', where I do leave things in the >inbox for products/services to be consumed but not yet consumed). No email, but then I wasn't buying anything, just making a booking.

-- Roland Perry Graeme Wall 02.03.16 02:26. In message, at 01:51:55 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>And 'application X didn't work, so all computers are rubbish' is a pretty >>>thin argument. >>>>That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens >>online being open-loop. >>It is, though, a common view expressed when the topic of ticket machines replacing people comes up. When people say things like, 'what about >making a reservation' or 'what about buying a ticket for ' or 'what about booking a ticket starting from not-here'. These >are all things that ticket machines are capable of doing, Most of the ones installed in the UK would struggle with a user interface for many of those, even though in theory you might be able to reprogram them, and replace the screen with something not quite so coarse. >it's just that the implimentation by most TOCs are lacking and limited, not providing a way to do them.

-- Roland Perry Robert 02.03.16 02:51. In message, at 11:16:49 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>No email, but then I wasn't buying anything, just making a booking. >>Not come across that before. The requirement for an emailed receipt arises from ecommerce legislation.

But if you aren't buying something, it's not that common to get an emailed confirmation of something you did online. Trivial example: eBay and PayPal email you whenever you do something, but none of my online banking accounts do. Nor does an email arrive every time I use my (registered) Oyster or a CCC on TfL. Presumably pay-by-phone car parking, or rail e-ticketing, are required to provide a confirmation of the transaction, but do they always present it as an email, rather than a transaction lurking leopardishly in their App? (genuine question).

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 03:55. In message, at 01:45:55 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >I suspect that currently, there are very few companies which don't >have chequebooks of some form. I have bank accounts for two companies, and one has a chequebook and the other doesn't. Bad news: the one which does, requires two signatures, and that's a pain logistically. The one which doesn't, when necessary I write a personal cheque then reimburse myself electronically.

>>DVLA's cherished numberplate scheme only accepts >>cheques, too, but perhaps that's for the old-farts market who still have >>Someone should tell the DVLA. >>>>'You'll need a debit or credit card to use this service.' This one, however, requires you to 'enclose the fee': -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 03:55.

In message, at 08:08:26 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >Back when Ian Batten were a lad[1] you'd find the cashier in some shops >in a little glassed in booth in a corner. Bigger shops had pneumatic >or mechanical 'railways' to send the money to a central point out of >site of the punters. Pah - the best were the ones where the money was sent in a container on overhead wire. Tesco still have pneumatic systems to transfer cash from the tills to the back office.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 04:05. In message, at 09:45:57 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>And thirdly, who are these people who are able to travel solo but >>>cannot use ticket machines?

Or are they a figment of the 'old people, >>>they're all a bit thick' stereotype? >>>>No, they are people who haven't picked up the skills to use technology, >>and are now too old to learn new tricks. >>Roland, you realise that you're now - in the eyes of many - in precisely that >age group? I am, and from the point of view of understanding consumer technology I'm still keeping well ahead of the pack. But my special interest isn't just the devices themselves, it's how they are integrated into people's daily lives.

30years ago I proposed what you might today describe as 'peer to peer file transfer for the PCW Word Processor', by building in a modem. A bit like a FAX, but only printing it out if you wanted to. Didn't gain much traction with 'Sir' who immortally said 'come back and ask me again when I can pay your salary using a modem'. By then, I'd gone off to pastures new. Fast forward to the Amstrad E-Mailer (where I did a little unofficial consultancy on the concept) and this time my idea was to have essentially 'Facebook for the e-mailer' several years before Facebook was launched. That didn't fly either.

No doubt my skill at selling ideas is less than coming up with them. >>>It's essentially impossible to buy Easyjet tickets other than online, ditto order from >>>Amazon, ditto buy from Ocado. Do you think that there are no customers over 65? >>>My parents and my in-laws do all those things, and are in their 80s.

>>>>And older consumers either choose to use a more tractable supplier (like >>an airline who sells tickets via a High Street agent) or get someone to >>help them. >>Or they don't, and just use the website like everyone else.

Are you planning >to stop using technology now you've got a Senior railcard? I use 'things which work' and sadly an awful lot of stuff is still vapourware, or excessively externalising their costs on the consumer. >Someone who is eighty now was in their 50s when computers became >available as home propositions.

I'll defer to my school-friend DNA: 'I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies: 1. Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty- five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.

Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.' -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 04:35. In message, at 13:22:16 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>Someone who is eighty now was in their 50s when computers became >>>available as home propositions. >>>>Yes, but they probably didn't have a DOS or Sinclair computer in the 1980s >>(maybe their grandchildren had a BBC B or Spectrum, but the grandparents >>almost certainly didn't use it). Who do you think bought £399 BBC Model Bs, in a time when that >represented about a quarter of a generous student grant, The game-changer was the HP35 calculator, which when launched in the early 70's wasn't just a calculator but could be programmed to do things. It cost about a year's student grant. >so the equivalent >of two grand now?

Grandchildren out of their pocket money? >>And since when did fifty year olds have grandchildren using BBC Bs? The market for the BBC Micro was schools, and affluent parents who could be persuaded that not buying one the home was a form of child abuse.

>At the time, my memory is that middle class fathers bought them to >dick around with in the company of their children, and to use themselves: >the market for Rolands PCWs was vicars and school teachers, The market for the PCW was 'companies with typists', and medium term not just to make those typists more efficient, but redundant because the boss could type his own memos now. Remember that the project name was 'Joyce', AMS's PA. And the brief was to make a word processor she could use without being a computer geek. In practice this morphed into a word processor my mother could use, being a fifty-something just retired school teacher with a penchant for writing 'letters to the editor' at various newspapers. The sad thing is, that 30yrs later I still encounter vast numbers of people in nearing-retirement senior positions who still can't really get to grips with email, let alone anything more complicated. >not children. Although we had a project to build a 'Colour PCW' which would have had a CPC-compatible mode, but a larger screen than a CPC.

This would have appealed to the home market where one-size-of-computer might have fitted all. We didn't proceed with it (the only design out of 20+ that we started but didn't get to market, compared to some other manufacturers where almost all the designs never got to market) because its CP/M platform for the business apps was getting a bit tired, and we were too busy with the PC1512 - which to close the loop was a £399 IBM compatible with obviously a wide range of applications from computer games thru word processing[1] to business spreadsheets and accounts. [1] It still took another decade for PC-based WP to acquire the depth of features in the PCW.

-- Roland Perry Ian Batten 02.03.16 04:43. On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 12:25:48 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >I'll defer to my school-friend DNA: >>'I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to >technologies: >>1.

Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and >ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty- >five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably >get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the >natural order of things.'

It's hardly original, and it's nonsense. When mobile phones first launched, the target audience were affluent managers, over 35: they didn't seem to have any qualms about using them. I don't notice older people with heart conditions having palpitations (ho ho) over statins or stents, nor does their friend in the next bed demand a proper general anaesthetic and major operation for their cataracts or hernia rather than the new-fangled quicker, easier techniques. People over fifty appear perfectly able to buy and use iPhones, Sat Navs and a range of other technologies which have mainstreamed in the past fifteen years.

This is all the sort of stuff that gave us the debacle of the digital switchover fund. Oh, the oldies won't be able to cope with this new-fangled digital TV stuff, we'll have to send out people to patronise them in their place of residence and buy them special dumbed-down oldie-vision boxes, permanently tuned to ITV1 with a light that flashes when it's time for Emmerdale. When the music stopped, there was a big pit of money with no home, because those people had been perfectly able to sort out getting a TV which worked. Riots from people demanding that their VHS machines be made to work anew never happened. How are people over 35 currently doing catch-up TV? The same as those under 35: with a combination of online services and possibly a Humax or other hard disk recorder. Ian Roland Perry 02.03.16 04:45.

In message, at 01:26:35 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>Yes, I had a Canon EOS 650, the first autofocus Canon, which came out in >>1987. I got mine a year or so later.

I've seldom used anything but >>autofocus since. >>Hang on: why aren't you doing it manually?

You used to, after all. Actually, last weekend's project here was to try to *disable* my Samsung Note's autofocus, because it spends most of its time dithering backwards and forwards, failing to decide on what's suitable. *I* know that 'infinity' is the right focus for the pictures I'm trying to take, but the phone simply won't take no for an answer. This is also why rather too many smartphone photos taken out of a window have the raindrops in perfect focus, but the landscape beyond all blurry.

-- Roland Perry Ian Batten 02.03.16 05:00. On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 12:45:50 UTC, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >01:26:35 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, ian batten >remarked: >>>Yes, I had a Canon EOS 650, the first autofocus Canon, which came out in >>>1987. I got mine a year or so later. I've seldom used anything but >>>autofocus since. >>>>Hang on: why aren't you doing it manually? You used to, after all.

>>Actually, last weekend's project here was to try to *disable* my Samsung >Note's autofocus On an iPhone, there's an app for that. Recliner's raw, your manual focus, everything for the elderly photographer: The results are lovely: it's one of the reasons I no longer carry a camera. Ian Graeme Wall 02.03.16 05:15.

On 2016-03-02 11:38:36 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The requirement for an emailed receipt arises from ecommerce >legislation. But if you aren't buying something, it's not that >common to get an emailed confirmation of something you did online. >>Trivial example: eBay and PayPal email you whenever you do something, >but none of my online banking accounts do. Nor does an email arrive >every time I use my (registered) Oyster or a CCC on TfL. >>Presumably pay-by-phone car parking, or rail e-ticketing, are required >to provide a confirmation of the transaction, but do they always >present it as an email, rather than a transaction lurking leopardishly >in their App? (genuine question).

No, but every time I *book* something online, e.g. A restaurant, or order a pizza for cash on delivery, even if no payment was taken, I've generally received confirmation of the booking with a reference number by e-mail.

It's a useful confirmation that the online transaction worked. Sure it didn't go into your spambox? Neil Williams 02.03.16 05:29. On 2016-03-02 12:15:17 +0000, Roland Perry said: >2.

Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty- >five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably >get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the >natural order of things.' Well, I'm 36, so I wait with bated breath to see when that happens:) (I've certainly said I don't see the point in things, e.g.

Snapchat, but that's not quite the same as plenty of people under their 30s also think it is pointless, I don't however object to its existence if there are people who wish to use it) Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:35. In message, at 05:00:55 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>>>Yes, I had a Canon EOS 650, the first autofocus Canon, which came out in >>>>1987. I got mine a year or so later.

I've seldom used anything but >>>>autofocus since. >>>>>>Hang on: why aren't you doing it manually? You used to, after all. >>>>Actually, last weekend's project here was to try to *disable* my Samsung >>Note's autofocus >>On an iPhone, there's an app for that. I find it surprising there's not an app for the Samsung. You can get it to stop autofocus for movies, but not for stills.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:35. In message, at 04:43:38 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, ian batten remarked: >>I'll defer to my school-friend DNA: >>>>'I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to >>technologies: >>>>1. Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and >>ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty- >>five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably >>get a career in it.

Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the >>natural order of things.' >>It's hardly original, and it's nonsense. It was published in 2002, not sure when it was written (being a posthumous collection of unpublished work).

Did someone else say it earlier? I agree that thirty-five is probably a little young though, but back in 2000 there were still people getting 'early retirement' (as an alternative to redundancy) at 45. -- 'It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit.

Networked computers make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing' - Douglas Adams 28/1/99. Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:35. In message, at 09:05:33 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >>>anthropomorphism about machines. >>>>I was reminded of this at the station yesterday when the disembodied >>voice on the auto-announcer said ' and we apologise for >>any inconvenience caused'. >>>>I'm not sure an apology from a tape recording is quite what people want. >>Though, presumably, it was selected by a human, or is it all driven off >the PIS? Based on my anecdotal experience, it's automatically tacked onto the end of any announcement of a delay more than about five minutes.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:45. In message, at 23:24:05 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Richard remarked: >>Somewhere I've read that the restrictions apply to the timetable not the >>running time. For the life of me I cannot remember where. >>Restrictions *can* be based upon the actual running of the train, but >none are - and I can't see it ever happening!

>>Ref: >>on.pdf >Section 4.19.8. Are you saying they are all in practice an 'A' in field 11? And where is this expressed on the ticket issued to the passenger? -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:45.

In message, at 19:10:43 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Martin Coffee remarked: >>Would that mean any peak train leaving a station late, that given its >>published travel time to London would then arrive after 10am, could be >>used with off-peak tickets? Sounds like a rather complex rule. >>>>To give a practical example, the 0826 from Ely to Kings Cross is >>timetabled to arrive at 0945; if it's predicted to leave 16 minutes >>late, should the ticket machine be aware of that, and start selling >>off-peak tickets at 0757[1] on the grounds that if it doesn't catch up >>any time it'll arrive in London just after 10am? >>>>[1] One minute after the previous train, due to arrive London 0910 has >>departed on time.

>>-- >Somewhere I've read that the restrictions apply to the timetable not >the running time. For the life of me I cannot remember where. Yes, they do apply to the timetable, which is why a ticket machine would need to know how the trains were running that day, if it's to offer an earlier option to buy an off-peak ticket than a few minutes before the first off-peak train is scheduled to leave.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:45. In message, at 17:22:47 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Charlie Hulme remarked: >On 17:06, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at 16:13:35 on >>Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Charlie Hulme >>remarked: >>>>What about situations where the return half of an off-peak is >>>not valid in the evening peak? The machine still has to sell >>>those in the middle of the day, so I don't see why it can't >>>sell one at 09:15 to someone who fancies a coffee at the >>>station Starbucks before catching the 09:40. >>>>That's slightly different, not least because the machines don't >>ask you when you are coming back (unlike the bloke behind the >>window). >>So how do you know when you can use it is there is no bloke?

Currently you have to look at the Fares Manual - which is available online. >>The assumption if you are buying a 'ticket for today' is >>that you'll be wanting to use the outbound portion immediately. >>All that's needed is 'Valid after 09:30 only' on the screen. Why should >you have to hang around in the ticket hall just because you have >arrived a little early for your train?

The one at Stockport station >has a grand total of just three seats outside the barriers. I think it needs to be printed on the coupon too, but my impression is that that the ticket machines are not sophisticated enough to be able to express the various easements, and only show the basic restriction.

-- Roland Perry Roland Perry 02.03.16 05:45. In message, at 13:26:15 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>The requirement for an emailed receipt arises from ecommerce >>legislation. But if you aren't buying something, it's not that >>common to get an emailed confirmation of something you did online. >>Trivial example: eBay and PayPal email you whenever you do >>something, but none of my online banking accounts do.

Nor does an >>email arrive every time I use my (registered) Oyster or a CCC on TfL. >>Presumably pay-by-phone car parking, or rail e-ticketing, are >>required to provide a confirmation of the transaction, but do they >>always present it as an email, rather than a transaction lurking >>leopardishly in their App? (genuine question). >>No, but every time I *book* something online, e.g.

A restaurant, or >order a pizza for cash on delivery, even if no payment was taken, I've >generally received confirmation of the booking with a reference number >by e-mail. It's a useful confirmation that the online transaction worked. >>Sure it didn't go into your spambox? -- Roland Perry Graeme Wall 02.03.16 05:48. On 09:42, ian batten wrote: >On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 09:15:38 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>Graeme Wall wrote: >>>On 08:27, Recliner wrote: >>>>Graeme Wall wrote: >>>>>On 01:59, Recliner wrote: >>>>>>Charles Ellson wrote: >>>>>>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:10:31 -0800 (PST), ian batten >>>>>>>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >>>>>>>>>their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >>>>>>>>>them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >>>>>>>>>mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >>>>>>>>>no such mode? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure.

>>>>>>>>You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered >>>>>>>>manuals, was common are you? And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in >>>>>>>>1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Only automatic exposure? AFAIR combining that with autofocus and SLR >>>>>>>came later. >>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, about a decade later. And anything resembling iAuto is 21st century. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Canon EOS series, which were amongst the first practical auto-focus >>>>>SLRs were mid 80s, Still got mine in a drawer somewhere, along with the >>>>>Leica M3. >>>>>>>>Yes, I had a Canon EOS 650, the first autofocus Canon, which came out in >>>>1987.

I got mine a year or so later. I've seldom used anything but >>>>autofocus since. >>>>>>>>>>Auto focus cameras can be very difficult to focus manually as they don't >>>have the v/f aids, eg split screen, that manual cameras have. >>>>Yes, but some mirrorless cameras do provide magnification of the focus >>point, which helps. But I still find it cumbersome, and seldom use manual >>focus. >>When I use an SLR, I typically use an OM1n fitted with the lovely Olympus >diagonal split-screen you could buy as an option.

I've got a weird voltage >converter thing which makes a modern battery look like the now-banned >Mercury battery it wants as a reference for the meter (you can also get even >weirder zinc-air (?) batteries which you have to take a little cover off >to activate, but go flat in three months) but usually I just guess the exposure >as there's plenty of latitude in modern films. OM1s are completely mechanical and >the battery only powers the meter (it's coupled, in that it picks up the shutter >and aperture setting and gives you a +/-, but that's your lot; the shutter timing >is clockwork). >>>All over the country, older photographers are using digital cameras perfectly >happily. They aren't using RAW because it's completely pointless, they aren't >post-processing because they just want to look at pictures of their grandchildren, >just as they didn't hand-print selected negatives either, and they are grateful that >the camera does the focus and exposure because even when they used to it >by hand (and most of them didn't) they found half the pictures didn't come out. >>ian >It is a pity that some people do not use post-processing, although I agree that RAW is not necessary for most people. The web is flooded with appalling, badly exposed photos that have probably been loaded direct from cameras, but which might have been made a lot more presentable with easy tweaks to the brightness & contrast.

And autofocus does not always work satisfactorily, at least with many 'consumer price range' cameras. For example, try to photograph a small, curved flower using autofocus - if it works at all, it does not always focus on the region of most interest to you. Martin Coffee 02.03.16 07:36. In message, at 15:36:55 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Martin Coffee remarked: >>>Somewhere I've read that the restrictions apply to the timetable not >>>the running time.

For the life of me I cannot remember where. >>>>Yes, they do apply to the timetable, which is why a ticket machine would >>need to know how the trains were running that day, if it's to offer an >>earlier option to buy an off-peak ticket than a few minutes before the >>first off-peak train is scheduled to leave. >But what happens if the services swap order? That's common at stations >like Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, and so on. The restrictions there will be based on the arrival time in London, so worst case the ticket machines could start selling of-peak tickets just before the first train scheduled to arrive after 10am [usually] gets to the station.

If a train scheduled to arrive earlier in fact turns up later, then I don't think passengers would be penalised. The opportunities for changing the system are mainly at places where the last-peak-train departs somewhat earlier than the first off-peak train. -- Roland Perry Martin Coffee 02.03.16 09:20. In article, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 17:58:49 +0000, Sam Wilson said: >>>That's not an Edinburgh I recognise, though it might apply to the >>station catering outlets. What time of day was that? >>About 2100, but by the time I'd wandered around a bit it was 2200, >which I think is the closing time of the station M&S. Just about >everywhere around the station (that end of Princes St) seemed to be >closing early, and nowhere seemed to show a closing time after 2200.

>FWIW, this was a Sunday evening and a very quiet one at that. >>I was surprised and a little miffed. I don't think I've ever tried to look for sustenance around there at that time on a Sunday night.

I can only apologise for your inconvenience. Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Neil Williams 02.03.16 10:29. On 2016-03-02 17:53:54 +0000, Roland Perry said: >Network Card restrictions are based on when you *depart* from your >station, which I agree is going to be the actual time, not the >timetabled time. >>It's a scandal that Network Card times are not correlated with >off-peak, in the way that Senior Cards are, but that's another story. >>16-25 cards have yet another different set of rules.

The fact that all the Railcards have their own slightly different T&Cs is something they could do with resolving, so then you'd only need one Railcard button on ticket machines. Martin Coffee 02.03.16 10:39. On 02/03/16 18:29, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-02 17:53:54 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>Network Card restrictions are based on when you *depart* from your >>station, which I agree is going to be the actual time, not the >>timetabled time. >>>>It's a scandal that Network Card times are not correlated with >>off-peak, in the way that Senior Cards are, but that's another story. >>>>16-25 cards have yet another different set of rules.

>>The fact that all the Railcards have their own slightly different T&Cs >is something they could do with resolving, so then you'd only need one >Railcard button on ticket machines. >Except this one has a non-standard discount! Arthur Figgis 02.03.16 10:40. On 00:30, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 17:58:49 +0000, Sam Wilson said: >>>That's not an Edinburgh I recognise, though it might apply to the >>station catering outlets. What time of day was that? >>About 2100, but by the time I'd wandered around a bit it was 2200, which >I think is the closing time of the station M&S. Just about everywhere >around the station (that end of Princes St) seemed to be closing early, >and nowhere seemed to show a closing time after 2200.

FWIW, this was a >Sunday evening and a very quiet one at that. That is the kind of situation where a Wetherspoon's can have a lot going for it. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK Arthur Figgis 02.03.16 10:49. On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 09:07:44 UTC, Recliner wrote: >Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at 12:55:42 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, >>Graeme Wall remarked: >>>>>anthropomorphism about machines. >>>>I was reminded of this at the station yesterday when the disembodied >>voice on the auto-announcer said ' and we apologise for >>any inconvenience caused'. >>>>I'm not sure an apology from a tape recording is quite what people want. >>Yes, I always feel uncomfortable when a recorded digital voice apologises >for something other than a duff computer system.

It's also annoying that >the apology is, of course, always identical. It would be better if they >recorded a few different versions of the apology, and chose them at random. >>>Perhaps they could also have different wordings, depending on whether it's >something minor, such as a slightly delayed train, and something more >serious, like a cancellation of all services. In Ye Olden WAGN Days, Digital Doris' apology was 'I am sorry for the delay.' , going up to 'I am very sorry for the delay.' If it exceeded a certain threshold (15 mins IIRC) and then 'I am extremely sorry for the delay' if it was more than half an hour (again IIRC).

It didn't make a ha-porth of difference to the inconvenienced punters on the platform! 02.03.16 11:06. 'Neil Williams' wrote in message news:djlp41F9hs0U1@mid.individual.net.

>On 2016-03-01 14:24:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>The other side of the coin is why would someone use the Internet to book >>a £2.50 train ticket, when a properly configured machine at the station >>would be a better solution. >>I'd use my phone, personally, particularly if it could be held on the >phone rather than having to faff about printing it. >>>That's a lot to do with their flat-fare system and the closed system >>which is TfL. If I were to plan a day trip to Manchester (where I haven't >>been for several years) is it reasonable to expect me to buy whatever >>Manchester's version of Oyster is, in anticipation? >>You could use contactless.

Or you could have machines that allow you to >insert the amount of money of your choosing (or pay that by card), plus a >card deposit, and it'll spit one out. The same machine could refund it >once done. If you can avoid it getting vandalised tim tim. 02.03.16 11:16.

'ian batten' wrote in message news:ad8185c7-ca82-4750-8f9a-fd@googlegroups.com. >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:06:18 UTC, Martin Coffee wrote: >>On 01/03/16 18:09, ian batten wrote: >>>in a way which is accessible and lovely, or it can be done badly, but >>>it's >>>going to be done. The people going 'oh, what about the goat herders' >>>over Oyster have lost on the buses, will shortly lose on the >>>underground >>>and short-haul overground can't be long after that. Just as all the >>>yelling and bad-faith invocation of the old folk didn't save pound >>>notes >>>or cheque guarantee cards, it's not going to save old ticketing >>>mechanisms >>>either. >>But it did save the cheque book.

>>It didn't really. Shorn of the cheque guarantee scheme (oh, the howling) >cheques are essentially useless for most of the purposes they were once >used for. Very few people under 35 have a cheque book (they've not been >offered to new customers for fifteen years) so a business which relies on >cheques is an inherently past-tense business.

The volume of cheques is >dropping year on year and businesses are charged more and more to >process them. To shut up a few noisy lobby groups they've been given >a walking zombie financial instrument because it's not worth anyone's >while to finally kill it. Enjoy it while it lasts. Please please please go and tell my pension company this they insist that I pay them by cheque and multiple complaints from me have achieved nothing to change that! Tim bob 02.03.16 12:01.

Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >01:51:55 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>And 'application X didn't work, so all computers are rubbish' is a pretty >>>>thin argument. >>>>>>That wasn't my argument, which was more to do with much which happens >>>online being open-loop. >>>>It is, though, a common view expressed when the topic of ticket machines >>replacing people comes up. When people say things like, 'what about >>making a reservation' or 'what about buying a ticket for >future>' or 'what about booking a ticket starting from not-here'. These >>are all things that ticket machines are capable of doing, >>Most of the ones installed in the UK would struggle with a user >interface for many of those, even though in theory you might be able to >reprogram them, and replace the screen with something not quite so >coarse. Ticket machines are just custom interfaces running on generic PC hardware.

The standard SBB machines can do all of the things I mention. Take a look at the interface simulator at [1]. I can load and use that on my smart phone screen, which is easily within the capabilities of UK ticket machine touch screens. [1] Robin Richard 02.03.16 12:32. On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:37:22 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at 23:24:05 on >Tue, 1 Mar 2016, Richard remarked: >>>>Restrictions *can* be based upon the actual running of the train, but >>none are - and I can't see it ever happening! >>>>Ref: >>>>on.pdf >>Section 4.19.8.

>>Are you saying they are all in practice an 'A' in field 11? And where is >this expressed on the ticket issued to the passenger? Yes, that's right. And I'm sure you can guess the answer to the second question! Graham Nye 02.03.16 14:00. On 2016-03-02 12:33, Roland Perry wrote: >>The game-changer was the HP35 calculator, which when launched in the >early 70's wasn't just a calculator but could be programmed to do >things. It cost about a year's student grant.

I used a HP-35 at college in the late 70s (on loan from the college). It was non-programmable.

>a 'Colour PCW'.- >We didn't proceed with it (the only design out of 20+ that we started >but didn't get to market, compared to some other manufacturers where >almost all the designs never got to market) because its CP/M platform >for the business apps was getting a bit tired, Oh, come, come. CP/M-based word processing was already more than a 'bit tired' when the original PCW was released, two years after the IBM PC was officially released in the UK (and four years after you could import your own from the US). The target market was the impecunious and those who knew no better. -- Graham Nye news(a) Alex Potter 02.03.16 14:04. On 2016-03-02 19:16:51 +0000, tim. Said: >please please please go and tell my pension company this >>they insist that I pay them by cheque and multiple complaints from me >have achieved nothing to change that! Assuming it is a personal rather than a company pension, take it elsewhere.

If enough people do, they will get the message. I would not enter into a contract with a personal pension company who would not take payment by one of standing order or direct debit. Charles Ellson 02.03.16 20:13. On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:05:13 -0800 (PST), ian batten wrote: >On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 02:02:56 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>Charles Ellson wrote: >>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:10:31 -0800 (PST), ian batten >>>wrote: >>>>>>>On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 23:57:59 UTC, Recliner wrote: >>>>>>>>>Many are using digital cameras, but barely know how to copy the images to >>>>>their computers without their children's help, and have no idea how to back >>>>>them up, let alone post-process them. Their cameras are always in iAuto >>>>>mode, yet surely these people were using film cameras in the 1980s that had >>>>>no such mode? >>>>>>>>No, they were using 126 and 110 cameras that had fixed focus and exposure.

>>>>You're not seriously suggesting that the use of SLR cameras, or metered >>>>manuals, was common are you? And any way, auto SLRs were introduced in >>>>1975 (the Olympus OM2, of which I have a particularly treasured early model) >>>>>>>Only automatic exposure? AFAIR combining that with autofocus and SLR >>>came later. >>>>Yes, about a decade later. And anything resembling iAuto is 21st century.

>>>>As usual, Ian has grossly overstated his case. >>So what's your poin? That using raw, a manual SLR and an alternative >brwser are the sine qua non of being able to buy a train ticket online? >>SLRs were always niche, aside from anything else because of the price >of them and the perceived complexity of loading 35mm film. >After a few films, a damn sight cheaper than using a 120 camera and if yours was complicated to load then you hadn't only screwed on the price. >I'm not >clear what you're trying to argue: that people who were able to twist the >focus on an SLR are now degenerate because they use autofocus now?

>That use of a camera in full-auto is proof that they're idiots? >That cameras requiring manual focus were ever more than a tiny fraction >'Requiring' manual focus? >of the market because most cameras were fixed-focus 110s and 126s? >That unless you can compute the reciprocity failure of film in your head >you're technologically incapable? >>It appears you're just reeling off a list of things you think are important >skills, that never had any mass traction anyway, and deeming anyone who >can't do them not really capable of using computers. Installing alternative >browsers is for fiddlers: the one that came with the computer works >perfectly well.

Using manual focus is for fiddlers: most people just want >the picture to be sharp, not to use an opened-up aperture to >minimise depth of field like it's still the forward of a book by Poucher and >25 ASA is 'high speed'. Using RAW is for nutters, and is completely pointless >for anyone doing less than substantial post-processing prior to printing >at 30x20. People who do none of these things can still, amazingly, buy >traini tickets. >>ian Roland Perry 03.03.16 00:41. In message, at 22:00:22 on Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Graham Nye remarked: >On 2016-03-02 12:33, Roland Perry wrote: >>>>The game-changer was the HP35 calculator, which when launched in the >>early 70's wasn't just a calculator but could be programmed to do >>things. It cost about a year's student grant.

>>I used a HP-35 at college in the late 70s (on loan from the college). >It was non-programmable. >The various models were rolled out in quick succession, so yes I was misremembering the sequence. The programmable one I had in mind was the HP-55. >>a 'Colour PCW'.- >>We didn't proceed with it (the only design out of 20+ that we started >>but didn't get to market, compared to some other manufacturers where >>almost all the designs never got to market) because its CP/M platform >>for the business apps was getting a bit tired, >>Oh, come, come. CP/M-based word processing was already more than a 'bit >tired' when the original PCW was released, two years after the IBM PC >was officially released in the UK (and four years after you could import >your own from the US). The reason we commissioned custom WP software was precisely because CP/M based ones (or even MSDOS-based ones) lacked the features we thought necessary.

That wasn't just editing features, but things like making the screen bigger so you could see the entire width of a page without sideways scrolling; international character sets, keyboards, menus and manuals that have probably not been equalled since; and things like being able to mix font sizes on the same line while preserving the right justification. >The target market was the impecunious and those who knew no better. At around £5k in today's money if you include a printer of equivalent print quality, almost no-one was buying IBM PCs at the time. Until we launched a compatible the following year. What millions of people discovered was that they could now afford to buy a word processor good enough to either write/rewrite/store business letters and memos (the original target market) or their sermon/novel (the market which rapidly emerged). -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 03.03.16 01:38.

On Thursday, 3 March 2016 09:11:37 UTC, wrote: >There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office can manage. UK machines are full of all sorts of patronising assumptions, though. So for example, LM's machines come in two varieties: the newer ones put up an on-screen QWERTY keyboard, but the older ones are A-Z. You can see how that debate happened ('what about people who have never used a typewriter? What about foreign tourists whose national keyboard layouts are different and want to buy a ticket from Northfield to Five Ways?' ) but it's hard to see what changed in the five years between the two models to suddenly make QWERTY OK.

I suspect that someone twigged that 'people who want to buy tickets to non-standard destinations that aren't on the front screen choices, are literate enough to have read the instructions, are literate enough to be able to use an A-Z keyboard, but don't know the layout of a QWERTY keyboard' is essentially no-one, and any way you can hunt and peck the four characters you probably need even if you don't know the layout. The main problem for ticketing in the UK is not the interface, it's that most people don't (with good reason) understand the underlying model of the tickets themselves, not helped by bizarre anomalies and a ludicrously complex set of validity rules. Interfaces can't fix that. Ian Roland Perry 03.03.16 01:58. In message, at 01:11:36 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >can manage. If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there.

Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'. -- Roland Perry Neil Williams 03.03.16 02:01. On 2016-03-03 08:32:36 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The difference being the much smaller range of fares/routes available. >It's all very well saying 'then the fares structure should be >simplified', but that's cheating. It is and it isn't.

If we want to go to a system of primarily self-service ticketing, something I don't have a massive problem with in and of itself, we need a fare structure that fits that. Companies are terrible for not wanting to change process, which results in tools becoming overcomplicated - it isn't just the railway. Neil Williams 03.03.16 02:08. On 2016-03-03 09:37:56 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The reason we commissioned custom WP software was precisely because >CP/M based ones (or even MSDOS-based ones) lacked the features we >thought necessary. That wasn't just editing features, but things like >making the screen bigger so you could see the entire width of a page >without sideways scrolling; international character sets, keyboards, >menus and manuals that have probably not been equalled since; and >things like being able to mix font sizes on the same line while >preserving the right justification. One of the best features, indeed, was the fact that the screen resolution was higher than on most other devices. 80x25 is quite restricting, the PCW screen was wider and deeper.

>What millions of people discovered was that they could now afford to >buy a word processor good enough to either write/rewrite/store business >letters and memos (the original target market) or their sermon/novel >(the market which rapidly emerged). And that's where people like my Dad found it suited them. He didn't move to a PC until he absolutely had to, and it was a painful process. It wasn't a computer, really, it was a writing and printing tool, a glorified electronic typewriter (which is what it replaced), and the fact that it was a bit old-fashioned wasn't really a concern. It did, until the monitor started to fail when it was something like 10 years old or more, exactly what it did when he bought it, and he felt no need for it to do anything else.

These days, Internet access aside, he doesn't do a lot more with M$ Word than he did with Locoscript. I can't even remember which Word version he is on, it definitely isn't the latest one. Charlie Hulme 03.03.16 02:12. On 09:51, Roland Perry wrote: >If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get >there. Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if >that's the fare, I think I'll try again and see if there's a >cheaper one, but I don't want to have to tell *all* that stuff >again'. Consider a Northern Rail machine at Stockport as observed last night. The first screen shows some popular locations like Manchester (including 'Manchester off-peak' twice, one Virgin Only but you only find out if you press it.).

Nothing to tell you what to do if you want a station not listed, but it the bottom corner is a button labelled 'Popular Destinations'. Press that, and you get another screen, which clearly is intended for West Yorkshire, as it includes such places as Burley Park, with at the bottom a choice of 'other stations' which you need if you want to choose a local station. That screen brings up an online list of the next few departures to anywhere, which can already be seen simply by looking up at the large departure screen a few feet away. Who programs this rubbish? Charlie Roland Perry 03.03.16 02:18. In message, at 10:01:13 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>The difference being the much smaller range of fares/routes >>available.

It's all very well saying 'then the fares structure should >>be simplified', but that's cheating. >>It is and it isn't. If we want to go to a system of primarily >self-service ticketing, something I don't have a massive problem with >in and of itself, we need a fare structure that fits that. Companies >are terrible for not wanting to change process, which results in tools >becoming overcomplicated - it isn't just the railway. The difficulty with changing any pricing structure is that it creates winners and losers, and for railway ticketing there will be huge numbers. Then losers make ten times as much noise as the winners.

Much of the complexity (a bit like income and corporation tax complexity) is due to using the rules to try to affect behaviour (such as travelling off-peak, or on lesser-known routings) and introducing selective concessions (by way of routing and off-peak timing easements) but without creating too many loopholes. -- Roland Perry bob 03.03.16 02:26. Right, but that's getting back to 'the machines I've used have crap interfaces so all machine interfaces are crap' fallacy.

I can't think of the last time I have been to a person-based ticket selling agent to buy even the most complex ticket in which the person did anything other than typing the information I supplied into a PC, and reading me the output. The days of APTIS are long gone.

If the PC they have sitting behind the armoured glass screen can sell a ticket, then a PC in a box that I access directly can also sell the same ticket. The only limitation is software.

Robin Neil Williams 03.03.16 02:28. On 2016-03-03 10:14:55 +0000, Roland Perry said: >The difficulty with changing any pricing structure is that it creates >winners and losers, and for railway ticketing there will be huge >numbers. Then losers make ten times as much noise as the winners. They do, but you have to cope with that as part of being in business. >Much of the complexity (a bit like income and corporation tax >complexity) is due to using the rules to try to affect behaviour (such >as travelling off-peak, or on lesser-known routings) and introducing >selective concessions (by way of routing and off-peak timing easements) >but without creating too many loopholes. I know, but the effect is to make the ticketing system not fit for purpose. And the so-called simplification didn't help, as what were sometimes usefully descriptive names (if confusing ones) are now replaced with just Anytime, Off Peak and Advance.

That wasn't a simplification. A simplification would have been removing some of the excessive permutations, particularly of walk-up fares. Roland Perry 03.03.16 02:48. In message, at 10:08:07 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >On 2016-03-03 09:37:56 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>The reason we commissioned custom WP software was precisely because >>CP/M based ones (or even MSDOS-based ones) lacked the features we >>thought necessary.

That wasn't just editing features, but things like >>making the screen bigger so you could see the entire width of a page >>without sideways scrolling; international character sets, keyboards, >>menus and manuals that have probably not been equalled since; and >>things like being able to mix font sizes on the same line while >>preserving the right justification. >>One of the best features, indeed, was the fact that the screen >resolution was higher than on most other devices. 80x25 is quite >restricting, the PCW screen was wider and deeper.

There was another hardware feature which most users were probably unaware of: the screen memory map was driven by a roller-RAM, for much more efficient screen scrolling. >>What millions of people discovered was that they could now afford to >>buy a word processor good enough to either write/rewrite/store >>business letters and memos (the original target market) or their >>sermon/novel (the market which rapidly emerged). >>And that's where people like my Dad found it suited them.

He didn't >move to a PC until he absolutely had to, and it was a painful process. >It wasn't a computer, really, it was a writing and printing tool, a >glorified electronic typewriter (which is what it replaced), and the >fact that it was a bit old-fashioned wasn't really a concern.

It did, >until the monitor started to fail when it was something like 10 years >old or more, exactly what it did when he bought it, and he felt no need >for it to do anything else. He'd relate to this article I wrote for the Indy, then (outspoken, moi?): >These days, Internet access aside, he doesn't do a lot more with M$ >Word than he did with Locoscript. I can't even remember which Word >version he is on, it definitely isn't the latest one. About the only feature that most users wanted in addition to those in Locoscript 1 was 'newspaper columns'. That arrived in version 4 of the software. Oddly enough it was requested mainly by people writing TV/Film scripts, who wanted to have a separate column for 'directors notes'. -- Roland Perry Neil Williams 03.03.16 02:56.

In message, at 02:26:17 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >>>software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >>>can manage. >>>>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there.

>>Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, >>I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't >>want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'. >>Right, but that's getting back to 'the machines I've used have crap interfaces so all machine interfaces are crap' fallacy. >>I can't think of the last time I have been to a person-based ticket selling agent to buy even the most complex ticket in which the person did >anything other than typing the information I supplied into a PC, and reading me the output. The days of APTIS are long gone. If the PC they >have sitting behind the armoured glass screen can sell a ticket, then a PC in a box that I access directly can also sell the same ticket.

The >only limitation is software. No, the limitation is not having a keyboard, having a smaller screen, and not expecting the user to know off by heart that an off peak return to Liverpool St is a SVR to LST (and hence there's a lot of short cuts and abbreviations involved 'behind the armoured glass. Of course it would be physically possible to program the kiosk (assuming there's no hidden gotchas, like interoperability with the reservations system) but the result would be so hideously long winded people simply wouldn't cope.

Remember, it also has to do the following, if it's to truly emulate a human seller: '.it must request sufficient additional information to enable it to make the recommendation. This may (for example) include any of the following:- (i) the departure and/or arrival time required; (ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise the journey time involved; (iii) the importance to the person of the price of the Fare; (iv) whether the person minds changing trains; (v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which the person needs flexibility in their choice of trains for that journey; (vi) whether the person wants the flexibility of an Inter-available Fare; and (vii) any special requirements that the person has. If more than one Fare is suitable, [it] must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.' -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 03.03.16 03:20. On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:12:00 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >On 09:51, Roland Perry wrote: >>>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get >>there. Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if >>that's the fare, I think I'll try again and see if there's a >>cheaper one, but I don't want to have to tell *all* that stuff >>again'. >>Consider a Northern Rail machine at Stockport as observed last >night.

The first screen shows some popular locations like >Manchester (including 'Manchester off-peak' twice, one Virgin >Only but you only find out if you press it.). >>Nothing to tell you what to do if you want a station not listed, >but it the bottom corner is a button labelled 'Popular >Destinations'. That sounds horribly like the older LM ones, which have the bizarre property that to buy a ticket from University to Northfield, ten minutes and four stops away, you have to drill down through three screens and type N O R T and then pick it from the pop up menu. Ian Neil Williams 03.03.16 03:23.

On 2016-03-03 10:59:28 +0000, Roland Perry said: >(i) the departure and/or arrival time required; >(ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise >the journey time involved; >(iii) the importance to the person of the price of the Fare; >(iv) whether the person minds changing trains; >(v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which the person >needs flexibility in their choice of trains for that journey; >(vi) whether the person wants the flexibility of an Inter-available >Fare; and >(vii) any special requirements that the person has. >>If more than one Fare is suitable, [it] must explain the main >features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.' But in the Sarfeast the vast majority of people are not doing that. They are asking for a Travelcard to London, be that a peak one or an off-peak one. It's like the Merseyrail thing. I can't see how the PTE can justify throwing subsidy at staffing stations like Aughton Park for the full period of service, when 99% of the time all it's selling is returns to Liverpool, and the fare structure is very, very simple (Anytime Singles and Returns and day tickets valid after 9:30am only).

One TVM, or maybe at a push two, would be quite adequate for the station's needs. Indeed two TVMs would be an improved service over the present ticket office and no TVM. Neil Williams 03.03.16 03:24. On 2016-03-03 11:20:13 +0000, ian batten said: >That sounds horribly like the older LM ones, which have the bizarre property >that to buy a ticket from University to Northfield, ten minutes and four stops >away, you have to drill down through three screens and type N O R T and >then pick it from the pop up menu.

FWIW I don't bother with the summary screen on those. I can prod the A-Z button and type in the first few letters of the destination far quicker than I can look down an arbitrarily ordered screen to see if my ticket type is there or not. Roland Perry 03.03.16 03:28. In message, at 10:28:48 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >On 2016-03-03 10:14:55 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>The difficulty with changing any pricing structure is that it creates >>winners and losers, and for railway ticketing there will be huge >>numbers. Then losers make ten times as much noise as the winners. >>They do, but you have to cope with that as part of being in business.

Some such changes can't realistically be coped with. >>Much of the complexity (a bit like income and corporation tax >>complexity) is due to using the rules to try to affect behaviour (such >>as travelling off-peak, or on lesser-known routings) and introducing >>selective concessions (by way of routing and off-peak timing >>easements) but without creating too many loopholes.

>>I know, but the effect is to make the ticketing system not fit for purpose. >>And the so-called simplification didn't help, as what were sometimes >usefully descriptive names (if confusing ones) are now replaced with >just Anytime, Off Peak and Advance. Super off peak? (Let alone 'Weekend', 'Rover', 'Child Flat Rate', 'Standard and Parking', 'Euro Standard', 'Euro High Saver' etc, not forgetting Groupsave and Privs). >That wasn't a simplification. A simplification would have been >removing some of the excessive permutations, particularly of walk-up >fares. As the permutations are generally fares at a cheaper price if you are prepared to accept some restrictions.

So reducing the number of choices is bound to leave some people worse off. -- Roland Perry Charlie Hulme 03.03.16 03:29. On 10:59, Roland Perry wrote: >In message >, at >02:26:17 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>If the PC they have sitting behind the armoured glass screen >>can sell a ticket, then a PC in a box that I access directly >>can also sell the same ticket.

The only limitation is >>software. >>No, the limitation is not having a keyboard, having a smaller >screen, and not expecting the user to know off by heart that >an off peak return to Liverpool St is a SVR to LST (and hence >there's a lot of short cuts and abbreviations involved >'behind the armoured glass'. In other words, the training and experience of a member of staff. When a machine offers me a Wayfarer ticket as the cheapest option for a day return from Davenport to Buxton, and gives me a chance to tell it I have a GM concession card so only need a return from Appley Bridge if I am going to Southport, I might start to be impressed. Charlie PS.- choosing the name Apperley Bridge for the new station in Yorkshire might not have been a good idea. Ian Batten 03.03.16 03:55.

On Thursday, 3 March 2016 11:29:44 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >On 10:59, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message >>, at >>02:26:17 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>>>If the PC they have sitting behind the armoured glass screen >>>can sell a ticket, then a PC in a box that I access directly >>>can also sell the same ticket. The only limitation is >>>software. >>>>No, the limitation is not having a keyboard, having a smaller >>screen, and not expecting the user to know off by heart that >>an off peak return to Liverpool St is a SVR to LST (and hence >>there's a lot of short cuts and abbreviations involved >>'behind the armoured glass'. >>In other words, the training and experience of a member of staff. >>When a machine offers me a Wayfarer ticket as the cheapest option >for a day return from Davenport to Buxton That's a weird edge-case, though, and not only about machines and manning: it's a ticket which is valid on National Rail services but which cannot be bought at National Rail stations outside the designated area. So if you're stood in Birmingham and planning a trip around the Peak District, you can't buy the Wayfarer ticket in advance other than by post. Overlaying local tickets for local people over a national scheme is bound to cause problems, but the solution is that those tickets be made national (there's no point in the NRES engine knowing about Wayfarers, because it can't sell them, and that's not NRES's fault).

Oh, and part of the reason it's cheaper is also that it has strange validity and discount rules that don't match other tickets (such as not needing a Senior railcard to get the 60+ discount). Ian Roland Perry 03.03.16 03:58. On 2016-03-03 12:08:15 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >How a popular and well-used money-saving ticket covering a large >well-populated area can be describes as a 'weird edge-case' I don't >know.

>>Northern ticket machines (or indeed Metrolink ones) don't currently >offer them at all. Ticket machines don't do rover tickets - that's one thing they need adding. It needn't be all of them - I don't see why, for instance, purchase of the All Lines Rover shouldn't be limited to online/by phone.

It's a niche ticket and there is no need for me to be able to go and buy one at Aughton Park or Davenport. Neil Williams 03.03.16 04:53. On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:58:17 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >01:11:36 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >>software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >>can manage. >>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there. Why would it need to be a dozen screens? I can complete a full booking transaction on railway booking websites in a whole lot fewer screens than that. >Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, >I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't >want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'.

It's called the 'back' button. You might find one in the top left corner of your browser window. Robin Roland Perry 03.03.16 05:27. In message, at 04:55:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:58:17 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at >>01:11:36 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>>There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >>>software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >>>can manage. >>>>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there. >>Why would it need to be a dozen screens?

I can complete a full booking >transaction on railway booking websites in a whole lot fewer screens >than that. Because the number of things you can get on a touch-screen TVM is so small. >>Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, >>I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't >>want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'.

>>It's called the 'back' button. You might find one in the top left >corner of your browser window. We are talking about TVMs, not a home PC. -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 03.03.16 05:27.

In message, at 12:53:35 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>Back in the day, things were much simpler. The clerk just had a pile of >>'Cheap Day Returns to London' Edmonsons in front of him and exchanged >>them for cash in few seconds. >>It isn't beyond the wit of man for a single-product TVM with a >contactless pad to be able to effectively do that. It's be a bit like the old tube ticket machines: Caption: 'Modern technology: The Queen is pictured examining brand new automatic ticket machines on her visit to Green Park station to open the Victoria Line in 1969' -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 03.03.16 05:39. On Thursday, 3 March 2016 12:08:12 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >On 11:55, ian batten wrote: >>>That's a weird edge-case >>How a popular and well-used money-saving ticket covering a large >well-populated area can be describes as a 'weird edge-case' I >don't know. It's a ticket that isn't sold by any of the NRES-linked vendors, and isn't available from the vast majority of stations in the UK.

It's promoted by a local organisation and its validity doesn't follow any of the standard principles. Ian Ian Batten 03.03.16 05:41. On Thursday, 3 March 2016 12:53:37 UTC, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-03 11:48:35 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>Back in the day, things were much simpler. The clerk just had a pile of >>'Cheap Day Returns to London' Edmonsons in front of him and exchanged >>them for cash in few seconds. >>It isn't beyond the wit of man for a single-product TVM with a >contactless pad to be able to effectively do that. The fact that it takes several minutes to buy a ticket for the most common short journeys is mad.

You could have a machine with five buttons on it for the five most common short-distance tickets and a contactless pad, and it would provide near-Oyster speeds in non-Oyster areas. Ian The Real Doctor 03.03.16 06:05. On 01/03/16 16:19, ian batten wrote: >I used an online purchase thing in Munich recently which worked very well, >even for cheap tickets. Meant I could buy a ticket for a couple of Euros in >the peace of a hotel room able to think what I wanted, then hold it on the phone, >rather than try to do it on a machine with a queue behind me. That the ticket >was only a couple of Euro was neither here nor there.

I use Ringgo for parking. It's great, and much easier than cash, tickets and so on. Ian Martin Coffee 03.03.16 06:14. On 03/03/16 12:53, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-03 11:48:35 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>Back in the day, things were much simpler. The clerk just had a pile >>of 'Cheap Day Returns to London' Edmonsons in front of him and >>exchanged them for cash in few seconds. >>It isn't beyond the wit of man for a single-product TVM with a >contactless pad to be able to effectively do that.

>It's beyond the wit of the ToCs to install a new TVM, even over the last few months, with a contactless pad. It makes me wonder if they are not operating standalone for much of the time. Neil Williams 03.03.16 06:28. In message, at 14:28:52 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>It's beyond the wit of the ToCs to install a new TVM, even over the >>last few months, with a contactless pad. It makes me wonder if they >>are not operating standalone for much of the time. >>Standalone as in not doing authorisations online? That's all the more >reason to want to accept contactless.

How are they to know if the CCC that's just been presented has funds available, and isn't just a throwaway pre-pay one with zero balance? I assume the £30 limit on transactions in shops is a compromise between fraud and convenience.

And with railway tickets we are talking about things which could easily be costing £200. Current TVMs are like a sloth on tranquilisers when going through the 'Contacting the ticket database' phase, so the technology clearly isn't up handshaking in the two seconds a contactless transaction is expected to take. -- Roland Perry bob 03.03.16 06:48. On Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:27:08 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >04:55:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:58:17 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote: >>>In message, at >>>01:11:36 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>>>>There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >>>>software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >>>>can manage. >>>>>>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there.

>>>>Why would it need to be a dozen screens? I can complete a full booking >>transaction on railway booking websites in a whole lot fewer screens >>than that. >>Because the number of things you can get on a touch-screen TVM is so >small. Did you even look at the link I posted last night to the SBB TVM interface? That allows tickets for any journey from any station to any station via any route in the country, with the journey commencing on any date.

Those tickets can be single, return, weekly, 6-strip multi-use or monthly travel cards. They can be full fare, railcard discounted, child or bicycle. You can book leisure travel deals. You can top up your mobile phone. You can donate money to charity. There are additional features I've never taken the time to explore. All from a touch-screen TVM.

None of them takes, from home screen to completing payment, as many as 12 screens. >>>Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, >>>I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't >>>want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'. >>>>It's called the 'back' button. You might find one in the top left >>corner of your browser window. >>We are talking about TVMs, not a home PC.

A TVM *is* a home PC. It just has a touch screen interface rather than a keyboard and mouse. Take a look at the SBB simulator. Go into the process of buying a ticket. Then, on the bottom left, you will see a 'back' button. Try pressing it. It's just like the one on a browser, that lets you go back one step without starting from scratch.

Must be magic. Robin bob 03.03.16 06:51. In message, at 06:48:02 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >Did you even look at the link I posted last night to the SBB TVM >interface? Of course I did, and mapping that type of interface to the UK's ticketing system is exactly why it would take many more screens than you appear to think. Does the SBB one implement all the seven requirements I've listed twice now.

>>We are talking about TVMs, not a home PC. >>A TVM *is* a home PC. It just has a touch screen interface rather than >a keyboard and mouse. That's a huge difference, as is the screen resolution. >Take a look at the SBB simulator. Go into the process of buying a >ticket.

Then, on the bottom left, you will see a 'back' button. Try >pressing it. It's just like the one on a browser, that >lets you go back one step without starting from scratch. >Must be magic. Does it have a 'Forward' too - so that you can change just one of the parameters and see (eventually) what difference it makes without re-entering anything.

-- Roland Perry Neil Williams 03.03.16 07:23. On 2016-03-03 14:36:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >Huh? How are they to know if the CCC that's just been presented has >funds available, and isn't just a throwaway pre-pay one with zero >balance? I assume the £30 limit on transactions in shops is a >compromise between fraud and convenience. And with railway tickets we >are talking about things which could easily be costing £200.

Contactless cannot be used for more than £30, so £200 tickets are of no relevance to it whatsoever. Neil Williams 03.03.16 07:25.

In message, at 15:23:46 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>Huh? How are they to know if the CCC that's just been presented has >>funds available, and isn't just a throwaway pre-pay one with zero >>balance? I assume the £30 limit on transactions in shops is a >>compromise between fraud and convenience. And with railway tickets we >>are talking about things which could easily be costing £200. >>Contactless cannot be used for more than £30, so £200 tickets are of no >relevance to it whatsoever.

Thus contactless isn't a great deal of use on National Rail. -- Roland Perry Roland Perry 03.03.16 08:40.

In message, at 15:25:32 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>'Just'! That's a huge difference, as is the screen resolution. >>A modern TVM such as the new SBB ones has a similar size of screen to >my Macbook. Northern are I believe experimenting with ones with a much >larger (32' I think) screen mounted sideways.

Obviously, if we are allowed to upgrade the kiosks by replacing them with much better ones, then more things become possible. I was under the impression we were discussing the triviality (or not) of replacing the software on the currently installed ones.

-- Roland Perry Martin Coffee 03.03.16 08:40. On 03/03/16 15:23, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-03 14:36:50 +0000, Roland Perry said: >>>Huh? How are they to know if the CCC that's just been presented has >>funds available, and isn't just a throwaway pre-pay one with zero >>balance?

I assume the £30 limit on transactions in shops is a >>compromise between fraud and convenience. And with railway tickets we >>are talking about things which could easily be costing £200. >>Contactless cannot be used for more than £30, so £200 tickets are of no >relevance to it whatsoever. >The industry could negotiate a higher floor level if they so desired but I suspect they wouldn't want to take the risk with is as high as £200. Neil Williams 03.03.16 08:47. On 11:55, ian batten wrote: >On Thursday, 3 March 2016 11:29:44 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>On 10:59, Roland Perry wrote: >>>In message >>>, at >>>02:26:17 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>>>>>>If the PC they have sitting behind the armoured glass screen >>>>can sell a ticket, then a PC in a box that I access directly >>>>can also sell the same ticket.

The only limitation is >>>>software. >>>>>>No, the limitation is not having a keyboard, having a smaller >>>screen, and not expecting the user to know off by heart that >>>an off peak return to Liverpool St is a SVR to LST (and hence >>>there's a lot of short cuts and abbreviations involved >>>'behind the armoured glass'. >>>>In other words, the training and experience of a member of staff. >>>>When a machine offers me a Wayfarer ticket as the cheapest option >>for a day return from Davenport to Buxton >>That's a weird edge-case, though, and not only about machines and manning: >it's a ticket which is valid on National Rail services but which cannot be bought >at National Rail stations outside the designated area. So if you're stood in >Birmingham and planning a trip around the Peak District, you can't buy the >Wayfarer ticket in advance other than by post. Overlaying local tickets >for local people over a national scheme is bound to cause problems, but >the solution is that those tickets be made national (there's no point in the NRES >engine knowing about Wayfarers, because it can't sell them, and that's not >NRES's fault). >>Oh, and part of the reason it's cheaper is also that it has strange validity and >discount rules that don't match other tickets (such as not needing a Senior >railcard to get the 60+ discount).

>>ian >Wayfarer tickets can be bought outside the area - certainly at stations in the Liverpool area, and in theory, on any Northern conductor's ticket machine. The most likely problem is whether or not staff outside the area can find the ticket in their machine. Charlie Hulme 03.03.16 12:07. In message, at 16:46:58 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>In message, at 15:23:46 on Thu, 3 >>Mar 2016, Neil Williams remarked: >>>>>>Huh? How are they to know if the CCC that's just been presented has >>>>funds available, and isn't just a throwaway pre-pay one with zero >>>>balance?

I assume the £30 limit on transactions in shops is a >>>>compromise between fraud and convenience. And with railway tickets >>>>we are talking about things which could easily be costing £200. >>>Contactless cannot be used for more than £30, so £200 tickets are >>>of no relevance to it whatsoever. >>Thus contactless isn't a great deal of use on National Rail. >>A lot of tickets, such as off-peak day returns from much of the South >East to London, cost far less than that.

An Off-Peak day return from Brighton to London is £29.40, so that tells us roughly what the catchment area would be. (The Anytime is £51.80, so we are talking about north of Gatwick where the Anytime is £31.00) -- Roland Perry Jeremy Double 03.03.16 14:03. Roland Perry wrote: >In message, at >02:26:17 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, remarked: >>>>>There is absolutely no reason a UK ticket machine with appropriate >>>>software can not offer pretty much any transaction a ticket office >>>>can manage. >>>>>>If you are happy with having to navigate a dozen screens to get there. >>>Not forgetting a decent interface to cope with 'hmm, if that's the fare, >>>I think I'll try again and see if there's a cheaper one, but I don't >>>want to have to tell *all* that stuff again'. >>>>Right, but that's getting back to 'the machines I've used have crap >>interfaces so all machine interfaces are crap' fallacy. >>>>I can't think of the last time I have been to a person-based ticket >>selling agent to buy even the most complex ticket in which the person did >>anything other than typing the information I supplied into a PC, and >>reading me the output.

The days of APTIS are long gone. If the PC they >>have sitting behind the armoured glass screen can sell a ticket, then a >>PC in a box that I access directly can also sell the same ticket. The >>only limitation is software. >>No, the limitation is not having a keyboard, having a smaller screen, >and not expecting the user to know off by heart that an off peak return >to Liverpool St is a SVR to LST (and hence there's a lot of short cuts >and abbreviations involved 'behind the armoured glass. >>Of course it would be physically possible to program the kiosk (assuming >there's no hidden gotchas, like interoperability with the reservations >system) but the result would be so hideously long winded people simply >wouldn't cope. Remember, it also has to do the following, if it's to >truly emulate a human seller: >>'.it must request sufficient additional information to enable it to >make the recommendation. This may (for example) include any of the >following:- >>(i) the departure and/or arrival time required; >(ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise >the journey time involved; >(iii) the importance to the person of the price of the Fare; >(iv) whether the person minds changing trains; >(v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which the person >needs flexibility in their choice of trains for that journey; >(vi) whether the person wants the flexibility of an Inter-available >Fare; and >(vii) any special requirements that the person has.

>>If more than one Fare is suitable, [it] must explain the main >features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.' There are really two distinct sets of requirements here, with two distinct solutions.

One is the passenger who knows what they want and just wants to buy it. At present ticket machines in the UK can only deal with a subset of the full range of ticket and booking types, but the technology to entirely satisfy this demand exists and can be made to work with current ticket machine hardware. The second set of requirements is that of a travel agent. Someone who can take a vague set of requirements, present a tailored range of potential solutions and work with the customer to figure the right solution with them. In larger stations these have for a long time been separated between the regular ticket window and the travel centre. In the modern era of cheap telephony and ubiquitous internet, however, it is probably better to serve this type of demand without the person going to the station, but serving them online or by phone.

Certainly at larger busier stations, where there is demand have a travel centre, but I don't see that the expense of keeping a fully manned ticket office at every station just to meet this minority demand is justified anymore. On the occasion when I have need of this kind of service at my local SBB station, I am required to pay a premium on top of the ticket price for it. Robin Charlie Hulme 03.03.16 15:34.

On 22:03, Jeremy Double wrote: >Charlie Hulme wrote: >>On 12:48, Jeremy Double wrote: >>>>>Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>>>PS.- choosing the name Apperley Bridge for the new station in >>>>Yorkshire might not have been a good idea. >>>>>>Given that the new station serves the settlement of Apperley Bridge, what >>>do you suggest as an alternative name?

>>>>>>>Apperley & Rawdon perhaps? >>It's not very near Rawdon.

I don't think the PTE would be happy to name a >station that they've funded after somewhere a couple of kilometres away. >It would be names after both. Apperley Bridge village centre seems to be about 1km away, although I don't actually know the area. There are other stations with joint names - well-known haunt of train-watchers Hatfield & Stainforth comes to mind. The existence of two stations with such similar names as Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for errors to me. Charlie Neil Williams 03.03.16 15:51. On 06:54, wrote: >On Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:34:55 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as >>Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for >>errors to me.

>>>>>>No more so than Hayes (Kent), Harlington (Beds) and Hayes & >Harlington, surely? And that seems to work OK, being about the >same distance apart as Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge. >Then there is Oxenhope, which is Oxenholme with a bad cold. At the very least they should add the county names to the database entries.

Charlie Roland Perry 04.03.16 02:25. In message, at 22:51:13 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, bob remarked: I don't disagree with that, but the 'travel agent' capability is required under the rules for selling tickets. >In larger stations these have for a long time been separated between >the regular ticket window and the travel centre. I think you'll find that many of those travel centres are no more.

And medium-sized stations that use to have (say) four windows for 'immediate travel' and one for 'future travel' have merged them. But obviously, their former existence demonstrates that complex requirements take a long time to serve. At Nottingham station the average was about ten minutes per customer, and I spent many unhappy half hours queuing for one of the 'travel in the future' windows, even though all I wanted was a simple walk-up ticket for the day after, which the 'travel for today' windows wouldn't sell.

>In the modern era of cheap telephony and ubiquitous internet, however, >it is probably better to serve this type of demand without the person >going to the station, but serving them online or by phone. Call centres don't have the staff training to be 'travel agents', I've even had them say 'Euston, never heard of it, it's not on my system, can you spell it?' (Probably because their computer is looking for 'London Euston'). I currently don't know of any online booking platform (train or plane or anything) which has the kind of 'expert system' built in that would guide someone through those seven questions and come up with reasonably optimal answers.

>Certainly at larger busier stations, where there is demand have a >travel centre, but I don't see that the expense of keeping a fully >manned ticket office at every station just to meet this minority demand >is justified anymore. On the occasion when I have need of this kind of >service at my local SBB station, I am required to pay a premium on top >of the ticket price for it. Several countries have a surcharge for 'booking manually' although I have always thought that a little unfair if you are getting a simple walk-up ticket and your only problem is not having enough of the local coinage available. And don't forget: there's generally 9% commission on ticket sales, which should be plenty for those longer distance complex requirements. -- Roland Perry BevanPrice 04.03.16 05:46. On 23:51, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-03 20:07:12 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>Why single out that one?

>>Because it isn't issued on standard ticket stock, for one? Or is it >nowadays?

>>Neil Most Rovers are now issued on standard ticket stock. One exception is the West Yorkshire Day Rover, which (at stations) was still on special stock last time I had one (late 2015). However, I presume conductor-issued tickets must be on standard stock. (And this is one of the few rovers that is inflicted with an afternoon peak restriction - most others only have morning restrictions.) BevanPrice 04.03.16 06:05.

>The purpose of staff at stations is not just to sell tickets. They also >help to give passengers a better sense of personal security than they >get at many unstaffed stations, and some of the better staff also help >to keep the station clean & tidy. That, in itself, probably encourages >more people to travel by train - even I would be reluctant to use some >unstaffed stations at quieter times of day. It is possible to provide staff who keep a station tidy, provide a reassuring presence and generally make the station feel more welcoming without putting that staff member behind armoured glass and without spending a lot of money training that staff member on the intricacies of the ticketing system. In fact, I would suggest that *not* having that member of staff hiding behind armoured glass is likely to achieve these aspects of station ambience and passenger-friendliness than having a member of staff sitting behind a ticket window waiting for a customer to turn up. Robin Charlie Hulme 04.03.16 07:15.

On 14:26, wrote: >>It is possible to provide staff who keep a station tidy, >provide a reassuring presence and generally make the station >feel more welcoming without putting that staff member behind >armoured glass and without spending a lot of money training >that staff member on the intricacies of the ticketing system. How much does a one-day course cost? Quite a few of the station staff I know have previously worked as conductors, and have transferred to station work for the regular hours, so they already know the intricacies of the system. >In fact, I would suggest that *not* having that member of >staff hiding behind armoured glass is likely to achieve these >aspects of station ambience and passenger-friendliness than >having a member of staff sitting behind a ticket window >waiting for a customer to turn up Would work in Switzerland. Charlie Arthur Figgis 04.03.16 16:42. On 14:08, BevanPrice wrote: >The purpose of staff at stations is not just to sell tickets.

They also >help to give passengers a better sense of personal security than they >get at many unstaffed stations, and some of the better staff also help >to keep the station clean & tidy. That, in itself, probably encourages >more people to travel by train - even I would be reluctant to use some >unstaffed stations at quieter times of day. From a passenger point of view, is a person sat behind a screen in an office really more reassuring than one out on the station interacting with the public? Meanwhile, Istanbul has staffed tram stops. Moscow has staffed escalators. Recliner 04.03.16 16:53. On 2016-03-01 14:39:59 +0000, Graham Murray said: >Roland Perry writes: >>>I doubt if most travellers are unaware of the existence of off-peak >>tickets.

They might be a bit confused about when they are valid, >>though. Which is probably why the machines only sell them when they >>*are* valid[1]. >[snip] >>[1] A useful change would be to start selling them after the last >>invalid train has departed, but that requires linking into the ODB >>to see if it's actually left yet. >>I wonder how the machines at Reading cope for Off-peak tickets to London >(including Travelcards) where the first valid train is before the last >invalid one? They are valid on 08:42 to Waterloo and 09:05, 09:12, >09:18, 09:25 and 09:33 to Paddington, but not on the 09:09, 09:15, >09:16, 09:19, 09:23 or 09:27. The last time I tried, about a year ago, the machines only sold the Off-peak tickets from 09.30, which does not give one time to reach the platform for the 09.33. Since then I've always bought them from the ticket office a bit earlier.

Sometimes I'm told about not using it before the 09.33, sometimes not. Anyway the 09.33 is so full I usually (if I can) wait and take the next, or next but one, train. -- Robert Clank 05.03.16 06:21. Arthur Figgis wrote: >On 00:50, Recliner wrote: >>Arthur Figgis wrote: >>>On 14:08, BevanPrice wrote: >>>>>>>The purpose of staff at stations is not just to sell tickets.

They also >>>>help to give passengers a better sense of personal security than they >>>>get at many unstaffed stations, and some of the better staff also help >>>>to keep the station clean & tidy. That, in itself, probably encourages >>>>more people to travel by train - even I would be reluctant to use some >>>>unstaffed stations at quieter times of day. >>>>>>From a passenger point of view, is a person sat behind a screen in an >>>office really more reassuring than one out on the station interacting >>>with the public?

>>>>>>Meanwhile, Istanbul has staffed tram stops. Moscow has staffed escalators. >>>>What do they do? >>In Istanbul, sell tokens for the trams (this might have changed to smart >cards now?). Istanbul has smartcards for the trams (and everything else transport-wise), yes, which are topped up at self service machines.

I can't remember if the machines can issue an Istanbulkart if you don't already have one - I think not, I seem to recall I had to buy one from a nearby shop/kiosk, but I'm not 100% sure. Somewhat oddly the tram stops are barriered (barriers which are obviously somewhat trivial to circumvent any time there isn't a tram at the platform, given the platform edges are not barriered at all.) Some stops do have a chap in a booth, presume he's there to do something about fare evasion - but pretty sure not all tram stops have that even.

All I could think of was that it might be pure job creation, >to lower unemployment figures. I'm doing a small tour of Moscow-Kirov-StPete's in April, I'll report back if they're still there (and indeed do anything) if I remember. Alex Potter 06.03.16 13:45. On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 00:58:00 +0000, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-06 22:55:39 +0000, Dave Jackson said: >>>Adlington. One in Cheshire, the other in Lancashire. >>On these, I think we would do well, in the manner DB does, to include >the county name on the signboards and on tickets, so it becomes a >de-facto part of the station's name whenever it is used.

>They sometimes do but don't always get it right. IIRC Hayes used to be offered as 'Hayes (Greater London)' which still left two choices. It now appears in the journey planner reverted to Hayes (Kent). Graeme Wall 06.03.16 23:18. On 22:55, Dave Jackson wrote: >On 21:41, Alex Potter wrote: >>On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 23:36:06 +0000, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as >>>Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for >>>errors to me.

>>>>Carmarthen and Caernarfon >>>>Adlington. One in Cheshire, the other in Lancashire. >>Both served from Manchester Piccadilly.

ISTR there was once a train which stopped at both. Davenport and Devonport have been confused from time to time, especially as some locals pronounce the former like the latter. I had an email once from the USA asking about train services at Davenport, Iowa. Charlie Martin Coffee 06.03.16 23:56.

On 2016-03-07 07:30:16 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >Both served from Manchester Piccadilly. ISTR there was once a train >which stopped at both. >>Davenport and Devonport have been confused from time to time, >especially as some locals pronounce the former like the latter. >>I had an email once from the USA asking about train services at >Davenport, Iowa. I've come across Manchester Oxford Road booking office issuing tickets to East Didsbury when Disley was requested. 07.03.16 13:14.

On 06.03.16 22:55, Dave Jackson wrote: >On 21:41, Alex Potter wrote: >>On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 23:36:06 +0000, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as Appley Bridge >>>and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for errors to me. >>>>Carmarthen and Caernarfon >>>>Adlington.

One in Cheshire, the other in Lancashire. >>There are two Moscow Metro stations with the name Smolenskaya and two with the name Arbatskaya. Each of the stations are on different lines and in different locations, and they make no delineation between them. Charles Ellson 07.03.16 14:51. On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 21:14:03 -0000, 'tim.'

Wrote: >>'Charles Ellson' wrote in message >news:soapdbdc0dsavmo60ticb8sco957nkrhaf@4ax.com. >>On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:41:59 -0000 (UTC), Alex Potter >>wrote: >>>>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 23:36:06 +0000, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as Appley Bridge >>>>and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for errors to me. >>>>>>Carmarthen and Caernarfon >>>>>Waterloo, Waterloo and Waterloo? >>Where's the third one >London, the other two are in Sefton and Waterloo. Sam Wilson 08.03.16 08:58. In article, Charlie Hulme wrote: >On 06:54, wrote: >>>On Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:34:55 UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as >>>Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for >>>errors to me. >>>>>>>>>>No more so than Hayes (Kent), Harlington (Beds) and Hayes & >>Harlington, surely?

And that seems to work OK, being about the >>same distance apart as Appley Bridge and Apperley Bridge. >>>>Then there is Oxenhope, which is Oxenholme with a bad cold. >>At the very least they should add the county names to the >database entries.

Not a county name, but regional. Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Sam Wilson 08.03.16 09:01. In article, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-07 07:30:16 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>Both served from Manchester Piccadilly. ISTR there was once a train >>which stopped at both. >>>>Davenport and Devonport have been confused from time to time, >>especially as some locals pronounce the former like the latter. >>>>I had an email once from the USA asking about train services at >>Davenport, Iowa.

>>I've come across Manchester Oxford Road booking office issuing tickets >to East Didsbury when Disley was requested. And there used to be just Didsbury as well. Anna Noyd-Dryver 08.03.16 10:38. Charles Ellson wrote: >On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 11:02:21 -0800 (PST), wrote: >>>Ticket machines don't sell priv tickets. >>>You would think they would have found a way by now. >Plastic priv card?

>Wouldn't that involve a whole new layer of technology (I don't think any other railcards have to be presented when buying from a machine or online?) for comparatively few journeys? Once all other railcards need to be swiped during the transaction then I can see it being extended to priv, but not the other way around.

All the ticket offices being closed are (like LU) to be staffed for longer hours by helpers - I would like to think that, like LU, they will be able to 'unlock' extra features in the ticket machine which customers can't access. This could easily include Priv.

Anna Noyd-Dryver tim. 08.03.16 10:47. 'Charles Ellson' wrote in message news:d61sdbh8lmr3nt9oqf6jg7a5p7percc14d@4ax.com. >On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 21:14:03 -0000, 'tim.' >wrote: >>>>>'Charles Ellson' wrote in message >>news:soapdbdc0dsavmo60ticb8sco957nkrhaf@4ax.com. >>>On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:41:59 -0000 (UTC), Alex Potter >>>wrote: >>>>>>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 23:36:06 +0000, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>>>>>>>>The existence of two stations with such similar names as Appley Bridge >>>>>and Apperley Bridge looks like a recipe for errors to me.

>>>>>>>>Carmarthen and Caernarfon >>>>>>>Waterloo, Waterloo and Waterloo? >>>>Where's the third one >>>London, the other two are in Sefton and Waterloo. As in Belgium, you mean?

How does that count in a uk ng? 08.03.16 11:01. Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-08 18:35:33 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said: >>>All the ticket offices being closed are (like LU) to be staffed for longer >>hours by helpers - I would like to think that, like LU, they will be able >>to 'unlock' extra features in the ticket machine which customers can't >>access. This could easily include Priv. >>Or just put it on there and actually check tickets. >Too great a revenue risk, I'd imagine, with the discount being so much more than other railcards. Anna Noyd-Dryver Anna Noyd-Dryver 09.03.16 05:56.

Charlie Hulme wrote: >>I never use self-service machines in supermarkets. They are >horrid things, and I like to say hello to a person. >I prefer the self service checkouts - I can scan things and pack my bags in the right order, there's a feeling of less time pressure (there are usually more than one machine so it's not 'just me' who's holding up the queue) and I don't have to interact with a person beyond getting alcohol purchase approved or when the machine gets confused. Anna Noyd-Dryver Anna Noyd-Dryver 09.03.16 05:56.

Arthur Figgis wrote: >On 14:24, Roland Perry wrote: >>In message, at >>05:49:51 on Tue, 1 Mar 2016, ian batten >>remarked: >>>>And of course, there the drift is going to be towards payment by phone >>>anyway. >>>>Which appear to require 'registration', which doesn't work well for >>one-offs.

Sticking some coins into a meter is much easier. >>Some TOCs are looking at using PayPal or similar to avoid the need for >registration, on the assumption that 'everyone' has a PayPal account >already (for buying goats on eBay). >Many interactions with PayPal can be done without having a PayPal account.

Anna Noyd-Dryver Anna Noyd-Dryver 09.03.16 05:56. Ian batten wrote: >On Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:06:18 UTC, Martin Coffee wrote: >>>But it did save the cheque book. >>It didn't really.

Shorn of the cheque guarantee scheme (oh, the howling) >cheques are essentially useless for most of the purposes they were once >used for. Very few people under 35 have a cheque book (they've not been >offered to new customers for fifteen years) My friend who had only held a uk bank account for 10 years has a cheque book. (He never uses it, but that's not the point) Anna Noyd-Dryver Neil Williams 09.03.16 06:14. On 2016-03-09 13:53:20 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said: >I prefer the self service checkouts - I can scan things and pack my bags in >the right order, there's a feeling of less time pressure (there are usually >more than one machine so it's not 'just me' who's holding up the queue) and >I don't have to interact with a person beyond getting alcohol purchase >approved or when the machine gets confused.

I similarly generally choose them for a smaller shop. A larger shop is usually delivered.

Bob 09.03.16 06:45. I'm not overly keen on self service checkouts, but I'm completely sold on the hand held scan-as-you-shop system my local Migros has introduced. It lets me pack items into the cary-it-home bags straight off the shelves entirely eliminating the empty your trolley onto a conveyer and then re-pack everything at the till step. That said, Migros don't sell booze in their mainstream stores so age-checking isn't an issue.

They do random honesty-checks, but the rate is set to a reasonably low level, and seems to be tied into the cumulus card[1] records in that if I buy basically my 'standard' weekly shop, I am almost never selected for a 'random' check, but if I deviate from my routine much, the checking rate seems to go up a lot. [1] Migros version of a loyalty card scheme Robin Graeme Wall 09.03.16 07:08. In article, (ian batten) wrote: >But I also recall 'what about the old folk, they won't be able to >use them you know' about, variously, pound coins, chip and PIN, Oyster >Cards, contactless payment, email, iPads, mobile phones, microwave >ovens. Patronising nonsense, largely.

Whatever happened to the >people who would be unable to travel after the removal of cash payment >on London busses, unable to buy food with the withdrawal of cheque >facilities in supermarkets and unable to communicate because of the >closure of their local post office? They probably got given contactless debit cards. -- Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead Wasting Bandwidth since 1981 Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency: Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ Arthur Figgis 09.03.16 10:35. On 09.03.16 15:40, Paul Cummins wrote: >In article, >(ian batten) wrote: >>>But I also recall 'what about the old folk, they won't be able to >>use them you know' about, variously, pound coins, chip and PIN, Oyster >>Cards, contactless payment, email, iPads, mobile phones, microwave >>ovens. Patronising nonsense, largely. Whatever happened to the >>people who would be unable to travel after the removal of cash payment >>on London busses, unable to buy food with the withdrawal of cheque >>facilities in supermarkets and unable to communicate because of the >>closure of their local post office?

>>They probably got given contactless debit cards. >There was similar talk about how people would manage after D-Day, was there not? People managed, they moved on. Nowadays, I would even think that there would be more support to help OAPs adjust to newer technologies. My mate's dad is in his 70s, and he absolutely embraces and loves the new technology. Pro E Torrent Free Download there.

Clau.@yahoo.co.uk 12.03.16 15:39. On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:22:37 PM UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >All that's needed is 'Valid after 09:30 only' on the screen. Why >should you have to hang around in the ticket hall just because >you have arrived a little early for your train?

The one at >Stockport station has a grand total of just three seats outside >the barriers. >>Charlie This is especially annoying when the first off peak train is only a minute or two after 09:30. How are you supposed to catch it if you cannot buy the ticket until exactly 09:30?

John Charles Ellson 12.03.16 16:38. On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 13:34:42 +0000, Martin Coffee wrote: >On 12/03/16 13:32, wrote: >>On 09.03.16 13:53, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: >>>>My friend who had only held a uk bank account for 10 years has a cheque >>>book. (He never uses it, but that's not the point) >>>>>>>>>Anna Noyd-Dryver >>>>>Cheques are due to go out in 2017, are they not? >>Apparently not:- >>Do money other countries in Europe use cheques? >Yes, according to the above article. >>I think that the Poles do not use them. >Only if the banks come up with an acceptable alternative.

>It would seem unlikely that there would not still be some form of written instruction to pay x to. A cheque is a defined style of doing so and any replacement could still bear a strong resemblance to a cheque to the untrained eye while actually not enjoying the same legal status. As for Poland, there does not seem to be any information about abolition but their use seems to be minimal (and not encouraged by banks), possibly mainly in the form of travellers cheques. Michael R N Dolbear 13.03.16 19:33.

Wrote >On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:22:37 PM UTC, Charlie Hulme wrote: >>All that's needed is 'Valid after 09:30 only' on the screen. Why >>should you have to hang around in the ticket hall just because >>you have arrived a little early for your train? The one at >>Stockport station has a grand total of just three seats outside >>the barriers.

>This is especially annoying when the first off peak train is only a minute >or two after 09:30. How are you supposed to catch it if you cannot buy the >ticket until exactly 09:30?

Buy the previous day? Or buy from home the same day and collect it from a machine. Of course the barriers may not allow you to pass until 9:30 I checked and a SWT machine still won't sell an off-peak for the next day (except on Friday). -- Mike D Chris Date (CMPD) 17.03.16 09:44. On 14:05, The Real Doctor wrote: >On 01/03/16 16:19, ian batten wrote: >>I used an online purchase thing in Munich recently which worked very >>well, >>even for cheap tickets. Meant I could buy a ticket for a couple of >>Euros in >>the peace of a hotel room able to think what I wanted, then hold it on >>the phone, >>rather than try to do it on a machine with a queue behind me.

That >>the ticket >>was only a couple of Euro was neither here nor there. >>I use Ringgo for parking.

It's great, and much easier than cash, tickets >and so on. >I agree it's easy and straightforward (ditto the competitors like PayByPhone), but when you want to pay for a vehicle that isn't on your account - e.g. Driving a different vehicle, or being a passenger in another person's vehicle - it gets more complicated. Also the other day I very quickly paid 20p into a machine to tide me over until the on-street parking restrictions finished at 6.30pm.

I'm no befuddled slouch on a smartphone but I think using the app route it would have taken me a bit longer to do (and cost more, as I think said council still levies a surcharge for pay-by-phone parking), Mizter T 17.03.16 10:21. On 14:53, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-01 13:54:04 +0000, Jeremy Double said: >>>Elderly people who cannot cope with computers would probably also have >>trouble with ticket machines, of any description other than the simplest. >>We will reach a point, we possibly already have, where it would be >cheaper to provide training for those people. There are enough 'silver >surfers' that I can't really accept that they can't. And I don't think >the economy or society needs to provide for 'won'ts', only 'can'ts'.

And >the genuine 'can'ts', i.e. Those with disabilities, can be provided for >in other ways, e.g. >>It's probably cheaper to give a relatively few people with disabilities >that prevent them easily using a TVM or online booking but who are still >independent enough to travel alone without a carer (e.g. Some blind >people or those with restricted dexterity) free travel nationally than >it is to keep a load of ticket offices open just in case one of them >walks in. I often see people struggling with TVMs, and help them out if I can and they're willing. I'm not making some anti-tech point, just a common observation. Mizter T 17.03.16 10:39.

On 21:39, Recliner wrote: >ian batten wrote: >>{.] >>At the time, my memory is that middle class fathers bought them to >>dick around with in the company of their children, and to use themselves: >>the market for Rolands PCWs was vicars and school teachers, not children. >>I think you mix in rather more technical circles than most people. Please Recliner, as you well know ian's life experience and perspective on the world is one of unimpeachable universality!

Mizter T 17.03.16 10:57. On 16:44, Chris Miles-Patrick Date wrote: >[.] >IIRC, there is a clause to allow after 09:30 OP tickets to be accepted on services a few minutes earlier.

>>I was allowed to travel on the 09:27 from Waterloo on an Off-Peak ticket last week with no problems at the barriers, conductor check or RPI check on board. >That'll be because the Off-peak period kicks in earlier that 0930 for travel out of London from Waterloo (same applies on other routes) - e.g. You can get the 0900 from Waterloo to Woking with an Off-peak Return.

Neil Williams 17.03.16 11:18. On 2016-03-17 17:20:33 +0000, Mizter T said: >I agree it's easy and straightforward (ditto the competitors like >PayByPhone), but when you want to pay for a vehicle that isn't on your >account - e.g. Driving a different vehicle, or being a passenger in >another person's vehicle - it gets more complicated. >>Also the other day I very quickly paid 20p into a machine to tide me >over until the on-street parking restrictions finished at 6.30pm.

I'm >no befuddled slouch on a smartphone but I think using the app route it >would have taken me a bit longer to do (and cost more, as I think said >council still levies a surcharge for pay-by-phone parking), TBH I think contactless payment probably renders all that complexity unnecessary. Particularly with camera-based pay on exit, which is becoming common in the Lake District at least. I really don't mind paying for parking, it's not at all unreasonable that I should cough up for sticking my vehicle on someone's land.

It's faffing for coinage that is a nuisance, and guessing how long you'll be. Neil Williams 17.03.16 11:18. On 17:01, Sam Wilson wrote: >In article, Neil Williams >wrote: >>>On 2016-03-07 07:30:16 +0000, Charlie Hulme said: >>>>>Both served from Manchester Piccadilly.

ISTR there was once a >>>train which stopped at both. >>>>>>Davenport and Devonport have been confused from time to time, >>>especially as some locals pronounce the former like the latter. >>>>>>I had an email once from the USA asking about train services at >>>Davenport, Iowa. >>>>I've come across Manchester Oxford Road booking office issuing >>tickets to East Didsbury when Disley was requested. >>And there used to be just Didsbury as well. >>Sam >I wonder how ticket machines (& some modern staff) would cope if the railways still served 6 different Newports (plus Newport Pagnell), rather than the 2 residual Newport stations?

Mizter T 17.03.16 11:43. On 18:18, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-17 17:20:33 +0000, Mizter T said: >>>I agree it's easy and straightforward (ditto the competitors like >>PayByPhone), but when you want to pay for a vehicle that isn't on your >>account - e.g. Driving a different vehicle, or being a passenger in >>another person's vehicle - it gets more complicated. (That said, on second thoughts I don't think the popular providers make it hard to just add a new numberplate. At least one of them doesn't require an account when using their app either.) >>>>Also the other day I very quickly paid 20p into a machine to tide me >>over until the on-street parking restrictions finished at 6.30pm.

I'm >>no befuddled slouch on a smartphone but I think using the app route it >>would have taken me a bit longer to do (and cost more, as I think said >>council still levies a surcharge for pay-by-phone parking), >>TBH I think contactless payment probably renders all that complexity >unnecessary. Particularly with camera-based pay on exit, which is >becoming common in the Lake District at least.

>>I really don't mind paying for parking, it's not at all unreasonable >that I should cough up for sticking my vehicle on someone's land. It's >faffing for coinage that is a nuisance, and guessing how long you'll be. I'm not sure the 'pay on leaving' paradigm is likely to come to on-street parking spaces any time soon. One thing the pay-by-phone services do generally offer for on-street parking is a virtual equivalent of the ability to 'feed the meter', albeit legitimately - so you can add some extra time on if you're running later than expected. I was at Gatwick short stay car park recently, which now offers the ability to just pay on exit at the barrier with a credit/debit card (with timing based on ANPR and the entry ticket) - I think this is a fairly recent innovation, before that a visit to a 'pay station' ticket machine was required. I assume this will become more common for barriered car parks (I don't visit that many so perhaps it already is).

Mizter T 17.03.16 11:47. On 18:18, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-17 17:21:51 +0000, Mizter T said: >>>On 09:42, Neil Williams wrote: >>>[.] >>>Yodel, for example, are crap, but it is the fault of businesses >>>using them that they are still in business. >>>>It's also the fault of consumers who just want things cheap cheap cheap. >>Indeed, if we all refused to use businesses using crap couriers, those >businesses, and hence the crap couriers, would quickly go away. Though of course (and we've discussed this before), actually finding out what courier(s) a company uses isn't easy - so much for the promised world of 'perfect information' in the marketplace!

I'm afraid I've heard more about Amazon's own Amazon Logistics operation, which has not impressed me much - it seems based on the proposition of an overwhelmingly casual workforce (certainly for the drivers), which I really do disapprove of. Ian Batten 17.03.16 13:04. On Thursday, 17 March 2016 18:19:51 UTC, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-17 17:30:11 +0000, Mizter T said: >>>I often see people struggling with TVMs, and help them out if I can and >>they're willing. I'm not making some anti-tech point, just a common >>observation. >>Partly because: >>(a) the UI is terrible >(b) the fare structure is impenetrably complicated >>Resolve those two things and people will get used to it quickly. And there's a rather more fundamental truth. It doesn't matter how much people grump about how they refuse to use things, their choice is largely either to use them or to find another way to spent their time.

Travel ticketing, and service payment more generally, is moving online with payment involving cards and direct debits and delivery via phones, smartcards and print at home in various forms. It's already pretty much happened in London thanks to Oyster (travelled on a bus using cash lately?) and will happen elsewhere over the next ten years. TVMs are going to become closer and closer to captive web browsers with a printer attached. This isn't a moral judgement, a technical judgement or any other sort of judgement.

It's a simple fact. Contrary to the popular belief that so long as long as one person resists things will stay the same, you will get a simple choice: adopt, and adapt to, what's happening, or stay at home. London bus travel? Oyster or contactless (unless you go to a tube or railway station and buy a cardboard one-day travelcard, presumably, although your options for doing that are going to become more limited). Don't like it? Approve, disapprove, happy, unhappy, it doesn't matter. In other news, want to make a phone call when away from your house?

Get a mobile, because phoneboxes are doomed. My guess, and although I used to work in the sector I haven't for six years, so this _is_ a guess, is that any residual obligation BT have to operate payphones will be traded away as part of a USO for broadband. Ditto any number of similar services: the world will change faster than generational change, and if you don't like it, tough.

Ian Ian Batten 17.03.16 13:06. On Thursday, 17 March 2016 18:43:19 UTC, Mizter T wrote: >I was at Gatwick short stay car park recently, which now offers the >ability to just pay on exit at the barrier with a credit/debit card >(with timing based on ANPR and the entry ticket) For staff, one of the university carparks is ANPR on entry for a car you have previously registered, and then swipe your card on exit to have it charged to your account.

Quite why it's not ANPR-only both ways is something of a mystery. Ian Michael R N Dolbear 17.03.16 14:31. 'Mizter T' wrote >>I was allowed to travel on the 09:27 from Waterloo on an Off-Peak ticket >>last week with no problems at the barriers, conductor check or RPI check >>on board.

>That'll be because the Off-peak period kicks in earlier that 0930 for travel out of London from Waterloo (same applies on other routes) - e.g. You can get the 0900 from Waterloo to Woking with an Off-peak Return. But not Waterloo to Godalming and beyond or Waterloo to FARNBOROUGH and beyond. -- -- Mike D Recliner 17.03.16 15:41. On 2016-03-17 18:43:14 +0000, Mizter T said: >I'm not sure the 'pay on leaving' paradigm is likely to come to >on-street parking spaces any time soon. One thing the pay-by-phone >services do generally offer for on-street parking is a virtual >equivalent of the ability to 'feed the meter', albeit legitimately - so >you can add some extra time on if you're running later than expected. Very true, I've used that before.

I nearly always use RingGo when parking in MK - the only annoyance is that LM stations don't use it. >I was at Gatwick short stay car park recently, which now offers the >ability to just pay on exit at the barrier with a credit/debit card >(with timing based on ANPR and the entry ticket) - I think this is a >fairly recent innovation, before that a visit to a 'pay station' ticket >machine was required. I assume this will become more common for >barriered car parks (I don't visit that many so perhaps it already is).

Luton Airport has done that for at least 5 years, probably longer. I half recall that if you do it that way you can't get a receipt, though, so most business travellers will use the pre-pay machine.

Neil Williams 17.03.16 16:37. On 2016-03-17 18:47:32 +0000, Mizter T said: >I'm afraid I've heard more about Amazon's own Amazon Logistics >operation, which has not impressed me much - it seems based on the >proposition of an overwhelmingly casual workforce (certainly for the >drivers), which I really do disapprove of. It varies who it is, in MK where one of the trials happened it was Action Express, a local firm very near the Ridgmont warehouse, but it does seem to have moved to an Uber-esque 'buy a van and do it yourself' model. To be fair, that model can work well for the customer - our local Hermes courier (not a firm with a good reputation) is a middle-aged lady who does it in her own car, no doubt for a bit of extra cash on the side, and she is always polite and reliable. Neil Williams 17.03.16 16:39.

On 2016-03-17 20:04:50 +0000, ian batten said: >In other news, want to make a phone call when away from your house? Get >a mobile, because phoneboxes are doomed. My guess, and although I used >to work in the sector I haven't for six years, so this _is_ a guess, is >that any >residual obligation BT have to operate payphones will be traded away as >part of a USO for broadband. Ditto any number of similar services: the >world will change faster than generational change, and if you don't like it, >tough. There is a country, I forget which one, that has turned off its fixed line telephone infrastructure. For those who don't do mobiles, they buy a box that plugs in and is, err, a mobile.

You just plug your trusty landline phone into it and forget what it really is. Neil Williams 17.03.16 16:42. On 2016-03-17 18:23:22 +0000, BevanPrice said: >I wonder how ticket machines (& some modern staff) would cope if the >railways still served 6 different Newports (plus Newport Pagnell), >rather than the 2 residual Newport stations? I don't know but I think a DB style approach of prefixing/suffixing in all usages of the station name would make it more workable.

If everyone got used to always referring to 'Newport South Wales', 'Hope Derbyshire' etc, there'd be less confusion. Similarly, there wouldn't be a station called University, it'd be called Birmingham University. E.g.: Charles Ellson 17.03.16 21:24. On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 23:39:23 +0000, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-17 20:04:50 +0000, ian batten said: >>>In other news, want to make a phone call when away from your house? Get >>a mobile, because phoneboxes are doomed. My guess, and although I used >>to work in the sector I haven't for six years, so this _is_ a guess, is >>that any >>residual obligation BT have to operate payphones will be traded away as >>part of a USO for broadband.

Ditto any number of similar services: the >>world will change faster than generational change, and if you don't like it, >>tough. >>There is a country, I forget which one, that has turned off its fixed >line telephone infrastructure. For those who don't do mobiles, they >buy a box that plugs in and is, err, a mobile. >No it isn't, it's a GSM terminal/gateway which normally is not mobile due to needing an external power supply:- [] >You just plug your >trusty landline phone into it and forget what it really is. >No, you more likely connect your switchboard or other fixed equipment to it. Not every telephone line is connected to a telephone.

Where a conventional-style telephone is needed (often to enable a headset to be plugged in or because it is the most practical device for the job) you don't need a box because you can get a 'normal' telephone which works on the mobile system:- [] Graeme Wall 18.03.16 03:37. On 23:42, Neil Williams wrote: >On 2016-03-17 18:23:22 +0000, BevanPrice said: >>>I wonder how ticket machines (& some modern staff) would cope if the >>railways still served 6 different Newports (plus Newport Pagnell), >>rather than the 2 residual Newport stations? >>I don't know but I think a DB style approach of prefixing/suffixing in >all usages of the station name would make it more workable. >>If everyone got used to always referring to 'Newport South Wales', 'Hope >Derbyshire' etc, there'd be less confusion.

Similarly, there wouldn't >be a station called University, it'd be called Birmingham University. >JFI how many other University stations are there? Roland Perry 18.03.16 04:24. In message, at 10:41:10 on Fri, 18 Mar 2016, Graeme Wall remarked: >>There is a country, I forget which one, that has turned off its fixed >>line telephone infrastructure. For those who don't do mobiles, they buy >>a box that plugs in and is, err, a mobile. You just plug your trusty >>landline phone into it and forget what it really is. >>Sounds like Africa, easier and quicker than trying to update a system >installed in colonial times and ignored ever since.

The problem with landlines in Africa is a combination of large distances, lack of electricity and people who keep pinching the copper. -- Roland Perry Ian Batten 18.03.16 04:44. On Friday, 18 March 2016 10:42:20 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote: >On 23:42, Neil Williams wrote: >>On 2016-03-17 18:23:22 +0000, BevanPrice said: >>>>>I wonder how ticket machines (& some modern staff) would cope if the >>>railways still served 6 different Newports (plus Newport Pagnell), >>>rather than the 2 residual Newport stations? >>>>I don't know but I think a DB style approach of prefixing/suffixing in >>all usages of the station name would make it more workable. >>>>If everyone got used to always referring to 'Newport South Wales', 'Hope >>Derbyshire' etc, there'd be less confusion. Similarly, there wouldn't >>be a station called University, it'd be called Birmingham University. Or at least University (Birmingham).

It started changing last year. >>>>JFI how many other University stations are there? >As above, It's now being shown as University (Birmingham). There appears to be a plan to put a station, or something, at Loughborough University: depending on where you look, there's LOU or XLO starting to appear. Ian Graeme Wall 18.03.16 04:53. On Friday, 18 March 2016 16:36:42 UTC, Graeme Wall wrote: >On 16:28, Neil Williams wrote: >>On 2016-03-18 10:42:18 +0000, Graeme Wall said: >>>>>JFI how many other University stations are there? >>>>None, but it was an example.

>>>>Just wondered if there were others, not criticising the example. And as I say, it's being renamed University (Birmingham), probably preparatory to being renamed Birmingham University. If you buy a ticket to/from it that's what's now printed on the ticket. Ian Charles Ellson 18.03.16 19:17.

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